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 Post subject: Re: Socialism
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:01 pm 
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Kenny wrote:
Monopolies are a freakin' lie, you cannot monopolize something unless you are the first business with an original product that no other business can replicate, otherwise other businesses will replicate the product, hire a team to work on new ways to use the product, and sell it better.

Problem is, Our car insurance here is monopolised by SGI, no competition except for out of province insurance companies that have been barred from here for like 55 years, Socialism = Anti Business

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 Post subject: Re: Socialism
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:40 pm 
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Kenny wrote:
I'm sorry that you don't understand capitalism then. Capitalism is the FREEDOM IN BUSINESS. If you have freedom in business, you also have freedom in what you do in that business, your workers have freedom against your business as well. Unions are discouraged in capitalism, but Unions are a socialistic thing. Socialism is a different mind thought that doesn't cover unions.

and freedom in business=the ability to abuse workers, find the desperate ones and make them work more hours for less pay, quite simply, they need the job.
"Unions are discouraged in capitalism, but Unions are a socialistic thing. "
the ability for workers to band together and fight for better rights are precisely what unions are. they allow workers to get better sick leave or better pay or whatever... capitalism doesnt like this. capitalism is maximum bang for your buck, no one cares about the employees.


Ducky, Capitalism didn't start outsourcing, Clinton's socialism did. Since it was unreasonable to have workers in the USA due to the socialistic point of view, businesses began outsourcing to China and India, and have been continuing today.

WTF??? capitalism is freedom of business, that includes the freedom to get people willing to do the same thing for less, minimum wage is a socialistic ideal overcome through outsourcing. companies were going to do it sooner or later with india and chinas booming amount of man power.

US Cars are fuel efficient, and that's not what Brent and I were talking about. By Bad products we meant products that are either deadly, or necessary and at a very high price. And Ducky, this line right here makes NO sense:

there are many many many bad products around right now, not all are the best they can be in order for maximum profit.

If you want profit, you make a good product, because if you make a bad product NO ONE'S GONNA BUY IT! I don't understand any of your logic in that case. If you make a good product, and sell it, people will like the product, and buy it. If you make a bad product and try to sell it, not all people are going to be stupid and you lose maximum customers, as well as your credibility goes down.

PLENTY OF PEOPLE BUY IT. if you want quality, get a european car, if you dont, get a mass produced car off a factory assembling line. people everywhere opt for the slightly cheaper product.
let me use an example k?
CIGARETTES.
obviously a bad product, without government intervention in advertisement restrictions, you would generation after generation DEAD by 40.
people know its bad. people dont care. malboro... how is their credibility? you cant always trust the people, we are merely humans.


Monopolies are a freakin' lie, you cannot monopolize something unless you are the first business with an original product that no other business can replicate, otherwise other businesses will replicate the product, hire a team to work on new ways to use the product, and sell it better.

in australia we have 2 supermarkets, nothing on the scale of wall mart but yeah... woolworths (safeway) and coles. there are known methods of prcie fixing to rub competition out of the way, the local green grocer cannot take the losses of cutting their vegetable sale price in half, but these supermarkets can. in less then a month, a competitor is gone and the prices go back up again. monopolies can happen, its when a super fat corporations leans on little businesses until they get flattened. the large businesses can take a little less profit over a couple weeks, the nearby stores cant.

Ducky, That's exactly what I meant too! Engineers CAN team up with businessmen and make a business, it's proven, and most fantastic businesses in America today come from just small amounts of money, but good engineers and good businessmen. The engineers think up a way to sell something better or make a new product, that the businessmen then sell, and the product becomes a hit. That story has happened MANNNNNNNY times.

name 5, if it happens that much, name 5, ill google it and ill step down on this point, if it has happened MAAAAANNNNNNYYYY times then this should be an easy task for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Socialism
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:41 pm 
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Kenny wrote:
brent wrote:
I don't think much of complete socialism. At the same time, I don't think much of complete capitalism. Extremes are never a good thing.

With too much government regulation of business, competition is removed and then the business will lack the means to grow and prosper. Just look at the DMV(for americans). It's owned and operated by the government and the people that work there aren't under any hurry and they can get away with having maybe 5 people try to take care of 50.

Complete Capitalism isn't good because without government regulation of businesses, the employers can abuse their workers and turn out a bad product. You only need to look at the Gilded Age of US History to see this when people could become sick and be fired, or lose a hand in a textile factory and then be laid off, etc. Again, they lose the need for a safe, high quality product. This can lead to a problem in a food product that could create a huge epidemic killing thousands. Also, Monopolies could form without government regulation, which would kill off competition, allowing the monopoly to go about business however it wanted to.

Any reason to be against complete capitalism can be taken from The Gilded Age in American History(1865-1900) and into the Progressive Era(1900-1920).

Answer me, kenny!


You're taking in effect that businesses would abuse their workers. Yes some companies would but it's more productive to pay a man more because he's more likely to take his job even more seriously. Thing is, by placing minimum wage, businesses find it a lot easier to just pay at minimum wage, and not based on what makes them more successful. Why? The minimum wage is accepted! If you don't like your job, and a company is paying you crap, you band together with workers and quit! Holy crap! You can do that Kenny? Yes. Yes you can. It's called freedom. You do realize you can sue businesses for bad products that harm people, correct? If a business does a bad product, guess what? It's a bad business! Use common sense. If businesses just do whatever the hell they want, yes some will be bad, but the ones that end up bad won't go anywhere. This is VERY apparent. Use common sense. Back then, textile factories were some of the only jobs you could find. If a family member worked for a textile factory, no doubt the rest of the family did as well. Let's look at it in MODERN TERMS where you have more than just bad textile factories. There is no government regulation vs a Monopoly! Are you kidding? There is none right now. Otherwise GE ( General Electric ) wouldn't be so huge. Thing is there's always private businesses and businesses that can sell products up to par with the best. Why? Because instead of these engineers and such joining GE where they'd most likely get paid less, they form up with businessmen and make a company, where they'd most likely get paid more. Some of those engineers will join say, GE, because it may be because of family, or they didn't do their research the full way.

You're assuming that all these things will happen and you're wrong, because..

1) They're not reasonable
2) They don't make profit
3) Businesses aren't out to kill people


Minimum wage is a government regulation made by...THE GOVERNMENT. The only businessman to ever have placed his own minimum wage was Ford. I don't know of anyone else who's done it and prospered as much as ford did. When it comes to workers striking, that is government regulation that allows unions to be legal bodies that can in fact act and work right. Unions were originally considered the beginnings of socialism back then. Before the government would protect the strikers, they could be ordered back to work by the employer getting an injunction. Of course, if you're working at one job for minimum wage and you're unhappy about it, it's doubtful you could go many places to get much more than minimum wage. You're a little stuck. Businesses like GE have been allowed to get so big because the government doesn't enforce it's laws that would adversely affect their businesses. It's called not biting the hand that feeds you. It's like when the Supreme Court passing a ruling, the president can CHOOSE not to enforce it. Just like if there's an anti-monopoly law, no one has to exactly enforce it. The entire goal of capitalism is to make money, which is why China is going to become one of the strongest economies as capitalism grows there. Capitalism does it's job very well at generating wealth but people will ignore others in order to generate their wealth and protect it. I don't see why you think all businesses are going to be nice. While yes, not every business is out for blood, a good majority are. It's beyond me why people don't see that.

and american cars are not that fuel efficient. My car is a kia and can get up to 38 mpg and kia is owned by hondyai(however you spell it) which is from Korea. Then you also have Honda which is also fuel efficient and is from Eastern Asia. For you not in geography, that's not America :)

When it comes to the bad product no one will buy it; think of something like a super-delicious uber donut. This uber-donut is, of course, super delicious. People are gonna eat it but it's not good for you.

Now apply that to anything else and -bam-

Quote:
Monopolies are a freakin' lie, you cannot monopolize something unless you are the first business with an original product that no other business can replicate, otherwise other businesses will replicate the product, hire a team to work on new ways to use the product, and sell it better.


facepalm

a monopoly is a single company that owns all production of a single consumer item. Like how windows was the only one making computer software for a while until Mac really stepped up. Now, I don't really know the history of computer stuff but I know that Windows was a monopoly because it had a good product. There is nothing wrong with having a good product that leads to a monopoly. But a monopoly=one business controlling the market for a specific good.

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 Post subject: Re: Socialism
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:14 pm 
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Kenny wrote:
Plotter wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Monopolies are a freakin' lie, you cannot monopolize something unless you are the first business with an original product that no other business can replicate, otherwise other businesses will replicate the product, hire a team to work on new ways to use the product, and sell it better.

Problem is, Our car insurance here is monopolised by SGI, no competition except for out of province insurance companies that have been barred from here for like 55 years, Socialism = Anti Business

Yeah, I was talking monopolies in a capitalistic ideal. Socialism monopolizes things so the government may have an easier control over it, monopolization is anti business, so monopolization does not exist in capitalism.

Exactly, and I like the the idea of companies competing with eachother, competition = fun. In Socialism, it's something like "Okay, National Insurance Company has 96.76 percent of shares in Insurance, The next runner up is Texas Insurance, at 0.92 percent." Or something like "Wal-Mart has now been nationalised under Socialism after the government threatened to shut down Wal-Mart because it chose to stay as a private corporation."

I liked this strip from Michael Ramirez cartoons
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Kinda off the point of monopoly, but the current government WILL do such a thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Socialism
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:23 pm 
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Kenny wrote:
mrducky wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Ducky, That's exactly what I meant too! Engineers CAN team up with businessmen and make a business, it's proven, and most fantastic businesses in America today come from just small amounts of money, but good engineers and good businessmen. The engineers think up a way to sell something better or make a new product, that the businessmen then sell, and the product becomes a hit. That story has happened MANNNNNNNY times.

name 5, if it happens that much, name 5, ill google it and ill step down on this point, if it has happened MAAAAANNNNNNYYYY times then this should be an easy task for you.

Microsoft ( Bill Gates and his friends saw a computer, and immediately found ways to improve it, and create applications. ), Westinghouse Electric ( Made by Nikola Tesla who beat out Thomas Edison ), General Electric ( Made by Thomas Edison after being beat by Nikola Tesla, beat his company and produced something better even though being almost broke ), Ford Motor Company ( Formed during the Great Depression, later got 12 investors due to businessmen talking deals ), BJ Services ( an oil company my dad works in, an inventor called Byron Jackson made the company after inventing and innovating things in the oil industry ).

Those are off the top of my head. I'll give you some more once I research.


and.... im dropping this point cause melfy just burned me bad... (you guys can feel the burn all the way over there cant you :3 ? )

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 Post subject: Re: Socialism
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:45 am 
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I like Obama. He's more anti-war than John McCain or whatever he's called.

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 Post subject: Re: Socialism
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:47 am 
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pie'nism does not approve of Obama

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 Post subject: Re: Socialism
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:45 am 
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That's not very social, kenny :-)


I am reading "The Sicilian", it's very interesting. Also contains an interesting reason for the rise of socialism...

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 Post subject: Re: Socialism
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:15 am 
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You know how everyone Says Obama wasn't a muslim? Well if they had read his book instead of being ignorant *SWEAR WORD* maybe theyd learn something about our fail president

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 Post subject: Re: Socialism
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:00 am 
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Anyone here who would mind Obama being a Muslim?

If so, please say so. Also give me your positions for your next age of play.


Because you can consider me your personal enemy, I don't like discriminating people.

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