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 Post subject: Re: Guns
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:15 am 
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Seth wrote:
http://www.businessinsider.com/adam-lanza-taking-antipsychotic-fanapt-2012-12


Yeah but you cannot anticipate that they would do such things.

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 Post subject: Re: Guns
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:31 am 
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Warning, long post, direct rebuttal to Seth, did not tackle nor comment on others so its just discussion if you want to read, just scroll past if you dont.

Quote:
If that kid was hell bent enough to kill people, he could have easily gotten into a car and waited until school let out and everyone was crowded around to mow them over. This has happened before. A simple Google search shows the search terms "car runs over crowd" produces 87,600,000 results!! Should we ban cars?


No, because cars have function and use. Even in Australia where there is plenty of gun control and gun restriction. Guns themselves are not banned.

Quote:
The rate of private gun ownership in Australia is 153 firearms per 100 people


Guns can be used as a tool, they are used to control vermin and cull certain animals. Farmers defend their property from feral foxes and dogs with them. They are used recreationally for shooting. What they arent used for is "defense", what isnt supported is a heavy and strong gun culture glorifying the ownership and use of the gun.

Quote:
They are also saying that this kid watched violent video games, and listened to heavy metal *gasp* just like those kids at Columbine! Should we then let them assume that this contributed, and they should ban that stuff too?

He was also male, lets ban males, dont pander to the popular media which seeks sound bites. They are strawmen arguments, you know it, I know it, dont waste space.

The above rebuttal for your "argument" if it is even called that tackles the knife factor, the frying pan incident, paper clip. They are all tools, they all have functions, but also all have their place in society, regulated and controlled. Children dont get to drive cars. Children arent recommended to play with knives (although many are taught how to use them). Others are just objects being used as blunt trauma.

Quote:
If you outlaw guns, then only outlaws in the population will have guns. Regular, sane and non homicidal people will be at a serious loss to defend themselves.

And does it not disturb you that you have to actively defend yourself with a gun, have you ever defended yourself with a gun Seth? Or is it just a talking point? Hyperbole and spin?

Regular, sane and non homicidal people will be the only ones able to sign up for a gun (like the rest of the world) if it werent for the US's horrific gun culture. Criminals will always find a way to get their hands on something, limiting what they can get drastically drops the overall death rate and danger criminals present to society. Unless of course you support removing all regulation behind getting a gun. At which point you are the librul scum denying murikan's their god given right to bear arms.

You mention this later but I am going to quote and thus address it now
Quote:
No, [the criminal has] got an assault rifle. [The criminal] can clear a whole house before law abiding farmer joe can load his double-barrel 12 gauge and snap it shut, let alone take aim.


Defend yourself? If a criminal gets a knife, you get a revolver, if you get a revolver the criminal gets a semi auto pistol, if the criminal gets a semi auto pistol you get an automatic military grade rifle. At what point can the people be restricted. To bear arms means to arm yourself with weapons. Why can I not get myself an RPG7 to blow up cars doing a drive by, you think your glock will do anything no. You have a right to defend yourself with a rocket propelled grenade, it will only cost you ~$500 a pop. Totally legit and safe because you can trust responsible civilians with RPGs can you not?

My RPG is missing a lot and hitting hospitals and causing a lot of collateral, give me a Javelin which has military level capabilities. Its my constitutional right to bear arms as I will it.

Quote:
Use the internet first to have a good look around at who owns and funds, and gives the most to these media outlets that are doing all of your thinking for you.


Seth, I have an honest question for you, are you on medication? You seem to be getting increasingly paranoid, Ive been on these forums for almost half a decade now and you never ranted about the "corporate media" being out to "get you", you never took a toxic approach to the world fearing every shadow every glow from light. Now you are going full tin foil hat on me and telling me that Lanza is the crazy one despite any concrete accusations and footing this early into the investigation. Yes, he almost certainly had a mental breakdown of sorts, no rational human being would go ahead shooting children like that, jumping up and down and pointing fingers and exclaiming things is exactly how people got the wrong identification, speculation regarding number of shooters arose, etc.

Quote:
My own mother freaked out and trashed the house before kicking her way through a door and disappearing for 5 hours on foot(and she is a collective and salt of the earth person), after the doctor decided Prozac was a good idea for her. Us kids ( I was 12 or 13 at the time) were terrified. We had NEVER seen that out of her! She looked like a zombie. Like a person I did not know, and later told us she didnt remember it! WTFudge?!! This was our rock! Our foundation, going off the hinges!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoxetine#Adverse_effects

Hate to tell you this but PubMed dont lie (so many PMIDs), your mother wasnt taking Prozac, she probably lied to you about what she was taking or actually had a mental breakdown and blamed it on the Prozac if she was even taking something that general for her situation. Without knowing the actual events I am going to have to ignore this anecdotal evidence as being unreliable all things considered.

Quote:
You can kick in a door as you see fit, and the only time you face a risk is if you run in with another criminal or outlaw.


You say this but criminals in Australia/Europe/other comparable to the US developed nations have guns and yet due to gun regulation the general population doesnt. You ignore the fact you are far more likely to harm yourself, your family/people you know/you kids harming themselves/people they know than actually using it to defend yourself. You have this delusional paranoid family that criminals are somehow deterred by the high rate of gun ownership in USA, that isnt the case, USA has some of the worst crime rates in the developed world. Too Long;Didnt Read? That situation you are describing is 100% delusional. It doesnt happen, all evidence in the world points to the contrary that a civilisation that isnt focused on guns, on giving everyone guns on glorifying the ownership and even use of guns has better safety, better crime rates and less horrific shootouts that we see today in USA. There is a quote about a criminal using an assault weapon to take out farmer joe right about here if I were answering chronologically but I dealt with that above.

Quote:
The fact is that evil will always exist. You cannot regulate evil out of the world, and despite what you may think, having guns does not make people evil.

But all evidence points to a bloodier world.

Quote:
TX has got it right. EVERYONE carries a gun, and you don't see this stuff happening there.

Language. We abide by the rules, you abide too. I always try to refrain and avoid even mild coarse language.

SCHOOL SHOOTINGS NEVER HAPPENS IN TEXAS BECAUSE EVERYONE HAS A GUN
Quote:


CCW teachers? New first priority targets is the only real change to occur.

Quote:
Just imagine for a second what a principal, or any citizen for that matter with a sidearm could have done in this instance?

Get shot? Potentially stop the killer? Potentially overreacting to a smaller gang dispute between teens showcasing only airsoft guns as intimidation and hitting 3 children as collateral since schools are quite crowded. Most CCW are not trained for this, police are trained for this, they know how hostage negotiations play out, they wear the appropriate equipment, they have constant training in assessing threats and reacting appropriately. A well meaning but panicky civilian might even get shot by cops/distract and thin cop numbers since they are dealing with multiple sources of gun fire if he screws up enough.

Jeanne Assam was a former cop and was part of Church security. Who would have thought, having trained security is better than untrained civvies.

Seth wrote:
http://www.businessinsider.com/adam-lanza-taking-antipsychotic-fanapt-2012-12

Alright, I actually followed the source through the trail to the NYMagazine and it ended up here, in the Atlantic where it isnt mentioned at all. In short, dodgy source, dodgy journalism.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archi ... za/266322/

Alternate path leads here with no mention of uncle, nor fanapt.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1221505

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 Post subject: Re: Guns
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:48 am 
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Need more then?

Ok... Since you all have the zombie media inspired impression that americans have no idea how to handle guns, and that they are apparently only used for evil...

How about a little reality?


http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/bio ... CM9dQ.cspx

http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=4527526


http://www.newschannel5.com/story/13615 ... ery-driver

http://www.woai.com/mostpopular/story/A ... EBOTQ.cspx


http://fox6now.com/2012/02/02/shots-fir ... d-robbery/

http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/16069552/vi ... d-suspects











I could go on and on.... but honestly, I dont think I should have to. Especially to anyone in another country, who might not value the rights granted to me by my country's forefathers like I do. Maybe you think that taking guns away from people is going to fix all, but I respectfully disagree.

People can be responsible gun owners. Putting a gun in a trained civilian's hands does not send them on some "video game delusion". Thats just crap! On hundreds of thousands of occasions just in recent years, the right to bear arms has saved lives. Of course evil will always exist, but the evil bad guys should not be able to take even more away from the innocent then they do by their actions, no matter how much the liberal media would have you believe it so.

Oh, and to address that whole "police are trained to asses and deal with, yadda yadda yadda". What about when the police end up being the assailants? How should the civilian defend themselves from them? I have officers in my family, and have heard countless stories of corrupt thug cops. They dont only exist on TV dramas.


http://www.examiner.com/article/nypd-of ... alism-plot

http://www.wbng.com/news/local/Police-O ... 75801.html


To also say that only civilians pose a greater threat of catching other civilians in the crossfire, well thats just an assumption. Ive trained for that scenario in my CCW class, and if your CCW video shows failed students, then they had failed teachers. You cannot train common sense. Im only going to give the incident here that I know of the most recently, but ive seen plenty of this over the years too:




Also, and this will be the last I post here. Since you all think that mass murder is limited to guns so much, perhaps you need to be reminded that in 2001, 3000+ people were murdered in one day by men that were supposedly only armed with box cutters.

I am absolutely amazed at how the media can warp reality for otherwise intelligent people, simply by showing cases on one side of the fence and glorifying them, and spinning them day in and day out, day after day after day. In the days and weeks that the media will be spinning gun control in the wake of this tragedy, I wonder how many more responsible gun owners will save lives and go unsung because people such as yourself would not like to hear it, simply because you refuse to believe in it?

You all have a good day.

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 Post subject: Re: Guns
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:23 pm 
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found this quote from George Washington.

"Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth."

you guys can figure out what it means, I am going to sleep :)

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 Post subject: Re: Guns
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:35 am 
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Spoiler:
Seth wrote:
Need more then?

Ok... Since you all have the zombie media inspired impression that americans have no idea how to handle guns, and that they are apparently only used for evil...

How about a little reality?


http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/bio ... CM9dQ.cspx

http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=4527526


http://www.newschannel5.com/story/13615 ... ery-driver

http://www.woai.com/mostpopular/story/A ... EBOTQ.cspx


http://fox6now.com/2012/02/02/shots-fir ... d-robbery/

http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/16069552/vi ... d-suspects











I could go on and on.... but honestly, I dont think I should have to. Especially to anyone in another country, who might not value the rights granted to me by my country's forefathers like I do. Maybe you think that taking guns away from people is going to fix all, but I respectfully disagree.

People can be responsible gun owners. Putting a gun in a trained civilian's hands does not send them on some "video game delusion". Thats just crap! On hundreds of thousands of occasions just in recent years, the right to bear arms has saved lives. Of course evil will always exist, but the evil bad guys should not be able to take even more away from the innocent then they do by their actions, no matter how much the liberal media would have you believe it so.

Oh, and to address that whole "police are trained to asses and deal with, yadda yadda yadda". What about when the police end up being the assailants? How should the civilian defend themselves from them? I have officers in my family, and have heard countless stories of corrupt thug cops. They dont only exist on TV dramas.


http://www.examiner.com/article/nypd-of ... alism-plot

http://www.wbng.com/news/local/Police-O ... 75801.html


To also say that only civilians pose a greater threat of catching other civilians in the crossfire, well thats just an assumption. Ive trained for that scenario in my CCW class, and if your CCW video shows failed students, then they had failed teachers. You cannot train common sense. Im only going to give the incident here that I know of the most recently, but ive seen plenty of this over the years too:




Also, and this will be the last I post here. Since you all think that mass murder is limited to guns so much, perhaps you need to be reminded that in 2001, 3000+ people were murdered in one day by men that were supposedly only armed with box cutters.

I am absolutely amazed at how the media can warp reality for otherwise intelligent people, simply by showing cases on one side of the fence and glorifying them, and spinning them day in and day out, day after day after day. In the days and weeks that the media will be spinning gun control in the wake of this tragedy, I wonder how many more responsible gun owners will save lives and go unsung because people such as yourself would not like to hear it, simply because you refuse to believe in it?

You all have a good day.

With all due respect Seth, you're being an extremist here. It is not to complely ban firearms in the populace, but to restrict it a fair ammount. Those news, they are pretty: yet how many of them are called something other than a miracle? Because it's a miracle those peeps didn't end up screwing up. Will all due respect to those who could actually stand up, use a firearm and protect what they needed to protect, I must also stand for those who couldn't, for those who didn't, and stand against those that misuse this right.

But now that you presented those cases (sort of tl;dr, can't see all of them); how many of the criminals on those incidents got their firearms legally? You yourself said that the gun doesn't kill; therefore, how can the gun protect? No, it is the person who protects, who uses the gun to protect: yet the gun is such a dangerous tool, that that person can't just come in, get a gun and start protecting. Instead you'll fall for guns' original designer objective: to kill or cause heavy harm. Maybe by sheer luck will an untrained civvy actually help, and God bless those who can. But let's face it, that number still does not outweight the direct damage the almost undiscriminate repartition of weapons in the US and the potential crime rate increase of the easyness to obtain a weapon. Sure enough, we can't take the guns away from everybody; the current mentallity won't allow it, but that doesn't mean we can't try the first step towards it. The end might not be reached now, but we can build our way to it. That's how we did it to the current situation. Why not reverse it?

Also, your point with cops being the assailants is irrelevant. It's not like the entire police will sublevate, so cops handle cops, just like they should handle any other assailant. If anything, a cop being the assailant just proves how much fortitude of mind using a gun requires. If a human being constantly trained to handle the type of situations carrying a gun for justice brings falls for such conduct, imagine an untrained civilian feeded with bad education, poor morals and a terrible family! These kind of people, who can just break down emotionally at almost any impulse and cause a tragedy, should not have a gun, even if the damn aliens show up trying to end up the human race! This is a problem that has been out there since guns existed, it's just that that same media you claimed that warped reality to turn us against guns, actually did the oposite to you. Guns for protection is a falacy. It gives you the sense of protection, but only you can protect yourself, and even then, you must have a clear judgement so you don't end up "protecting" yourself from a band of innocent bystanders because they pulled candy from their pockets and you thought it was a gun aimed at you.

I'd also like to see what George Washington would had said to the Connecticut masacre. To the over-the-roof crime rates of the US. If he had any love for the lives of his countrymen, he'd cry, eat those words, and change the Constitution with his blood.

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 Post subject: Re: Guns
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:12 am 
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Quote:
Ok... Since you all have the zombie media inspired impression that americans have no idea how to handle guns, and that they are apparently only used for evil...


Seth, am sure one can come up with tons of other examples where the ignorance has shown. I mean when it comes to handling weapons. For instance, one of the latest story, where a 7 yr old kid was killed bcause of an accidental discharge. And so on and so forth. The number of accidental deaths, the number of deaths due to crime far exceed any self defence success stories.

Quote:
I dont think I should have to. Especially to anyone in another country, who might not value the rights granted to me by my country's forefathers like I do. Maybe you think that taking guns away from people is going to fix all, but I respectfully disagree.


Seth, correct me if I am wrong, because am sure you know more about the constitution of the US than I do. But isnt this wording in there - "Well regulated militia..."? America today is not a well regulated militia. Its an unregulated citizenry. Switzerland, which most conservatives like to point to, is a well regulated militia. They dont have a standing army. So a 200 yr old document, talking about something entirely different, is invalid today. I think its time they repealed the 2nd amendment in the US. Far too many people have made profits, far too many people have made use of it to promote their own politics and far too many people have died because of it.

Quote:
People can be responsible gun owners. Putting a gun in a trained civilian's hands does not send them on some "video game delusion".


Sure they can. I have conservative friends that are extremely disciplined. When they took me to the range, the first thing they taught me was not how to shoot. But what NOT to do with a gun. I would trust them and give them a million guns and a million rounds.

But its not just them that exist in American society. The few bad guys ruin it for everybody. Now you might say, dont punish me cuz of a few guys, cuz am disciplined. You are right, but unfortunately there is absolutely no other way you can actually pick these bad guys out of society. There is just no reliable way you can do it. The only way to stop these guys is to restrict everybody. Its unfortunate, but necessary.

Quote:
Oh, and to address that whole "police are trained to asses and deal with, yadda yadda yadda". What about when the police end up being the assailants? How should the civilian defend themselves from them? I have officers in my family, and have heard countless stories of corrupt thug cops. They dont only exist on TV dramas.


Corrupt cops are a different issue. If they are assailants, you just do what they ask of you, but you sue them later on. You dont pull a gun on them and shoot them dead, cuz then you killed a cop, and you are a dead man.

Quote:
To also say that only civilians pose a greater threat of catching other civilians in the crossfire, well thats just an assumption. Ive trained for that scenario in my CCW class, and if your CCW video shows failed students, then they had failed teachers. You cannot train common sense. Im only going to give the incident here that I know of the most recently, but ive seen plenty of this over the years too:


Seth, I only go by results. Please tell everyone here, how many times in your life, did you have to pull out your gun and defend yourself and your family ? Lets say you are shopping with your son at Walmart or Costco or somewhere. And a guy with assault rifles comes in, and starts shooting. Would you pull out your gun or would you pick up your kid and take cover? Secondly in that situation where you think you will be proactive, you wont be. You will be so full of adrenaline, that any amount of training, without actual practice, will not condition you mentally. In training you KNOW ou are safe. This isnt the case when there is an actual attack. Its giong to be that much more frantic. You think you will be able to defend yourself, its much easier said than done. You will freeze, or shoot someone else, or get shot yourself. Thats what will happen.

Now as for the gun control thingy, Yeah no one needs to control guns.

But I think what you guys need is control of Ammunition sales. Many people might wanna collect guns, you know, sort of like a collectors item. Let them have their weapons. But no ammo. I think that is the biggest problem in teh US. Any tom, *CENSORED* and harry being able to buy as many rounds as he/she wants. Even a mad man can accumulate 1000s of rounds over a period of several days. Thats just ridiculous.

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 Post subject: Re: Guns
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:28 am 
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Seth is right though even without guns people will always find new ways to kill other people

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 Post subject: Re: Guns
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:05 pm 
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First off all, not Seth since if I respond to Seth first, my other responses get buried behind walls of text.

dor444 wrote:
Seth is right though even without guns people will always find new ways to kill other people


But you can limit damage and likelihood of occurance severely by putting regulation and controls around weapons. This is evident when comparing homicide rates between USA and other developed nations. USA's gun homicide rate is 40X higher than UKs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

USA has a homicide rate of 4.2 per 100 000 compared to 1.2 (UK), 1 (Australia), 0.8 (Germany), 1.1 (France), 0.3 (Japan). Homicide rate by guns is much much worse in comparison. Already bought it up in a reply to Seth.

afrokickman wrote:
found this quote from George Washington.

"Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth."


False quote, quote mine, what have you, learn to verify what a FF says before idolizing false words. It would take you no more than 15 seconds of googling to realise it is false, this is the 21st century, use it to its fullest.

Back to Seth

Quote:
Ok... Since you all have the zombie media inspired impression that americans have no idea how to handle guns, and that they are apparently only used for evil...

So many baseless assumptions. Ive handled a handgun in a range and the Australian standard issued rifle for combat forces, the AUG Steyr, on a range while in cadets. I could reload a gun, not as competently as people who do it routinely do but the ins and outs are known enough by me. Also I use mainstream media outlets less than you do. I use inductive/deductive reasoning and persuasive arguments as my methodology in debate. Statistics are used to emphasize a point rather than act as the point itself.

So many baseless youtube links and fox stories. I could pull some out like so:

http://news.firedoglake.com/2011/01/11/ ... -shooting/
CCW almost shoots civilian who had taken gun off the guy who was on a rampage.

http://www.timesonline.com/news/police_ ... 6fbca.html
Girl shot by relative because her halloween costume made her look like a skunk, obviously you shoot skunks with a shotgun.

But lets not dwell on individual case by case instances. Lets look at the bigger picture, lets turn to. Statistics.

45.4% of all victims of homicides in their home kept a firearm in their home (Kellerman 1993)

From this it seems that a gun doesnt always protect you. It doesnt make you immune to homicide and murder. It doesnt stop people from breaking into your house.

Having a gun in your household not only increases likelihood of suicide but also increases homicide by firearm by up to 114% between states with high rates of household gun ownership compared to states with lower rates of household gun ownership
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17426563

Sure there are other variables but 114% difference and significant is quite profound when comparing between states.

Of unintentional firearm fatalities, about half (49%) were inflicted by others, the shooters were primarily friends (43%) or family (47%).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20441829

43% friends. 47% family. If you are going to be accidentally shot, it will be by someone you know. Going on this trend is the following:

You are many times more likely to harm yourself or known family/friends than stop an intruder. (Kellenway 1993)

I mean many times more likely. As in rates increase X00% compared to those shooting off intruders and those shooting family/friends in altercations or accidental or what have you.

Finally and most importantly this link, if you dont click any link click this one. Of course, Harvard isnt as prestigious as youtube or a local news station, but I think these guys have a decent enough track record.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hi ... index.html

It really does sum up my point with scientific literature. As opposed to spamming youtube videos.

Quote:
Especially to anyone in another country, who might not value the rights granted to me by my country's forefathers like I do. Maybe you think that taking guns away from people is going to fix all, but I respectfully disagree.


Awesome, I cant have an opinion on guns simply because Im not American. Stop being so self conceited and arrogant as to think that my opinion doesnt matter because I dont poop bald eagles and shoot blue white and red lasers from my eyes. We are all humans. We are all in a world where guns exist. Let each other's points be valid and invalidated based upon merit and not nationality of the person behind that speech.

I never argue for a total gun ban, no country has a total gun ban. I argue for gun control, where logic and reason dictate policy. Maybe you think that increasing weapons in the hands of civlians is going to fix all but I disagree since reality disagrees.

Perhaps you should stop acting so paranoid about the media/other people and actually listen to what they say. I dont know many if any organisations argue for the complete eradication of guns. They argue for gun control which has tangible and realistic effects.

Its not my CCW video and that video has 2 cops shooting 16 bullets, 5 miss, of those that miss, 3 hit civilians, another 6 are injured by fragments.

Quote:
Since you all think that mass murder is limited to guns so much... 3000+ people were murdered in one day [by multiple commercial jets]

Hundreds die to artillery. Thousands die to bombing. Tens of thousands have died to a nuclear bomb. They are all controlled and limited to the public. This includes commercial aircraft. Guns are far too accessible in USA, they are part of the problem. You can sit there, high and mighty, with all your knowledge and limited training and still have to face 11,493 deaths from gun homicide each year and having more innocents die each year compared to other developed nations.

Quote:
people such as yourself would not like to hear it, simply because you refuse to believe in it?

Oh I accept it happens, I dont accept that it justifies having XX number of individuals saved per year when XX XXX die per year. I dont see how you save one life with a gun but then take away a hundred is a feasible and worthwhile trade off in your eyes. Its cute that you have youtube videos supporting you but studies from Harvard indicate a much bleaker aspect of guns.

Oh but of course this reality will not be reported as well because people such as yourself (Seth) would not like to hear it, simply because you refuse to believe in it?

You have a good day, while your fellow countrymen and women die at a rate needlessly high for a developed nation because you are unwilling to change or look at whats happening.

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 Post subject: Re: Guns
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:57 am 
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dor444 wrote:
Seth is right though even without guns people will always find new ways to kill other people


The goal is not to reduce crime down to 0%. The goal is not to eradicate homicide, although it would be great. The goal is to reduce crimes and accidents due to guns.

BTW Ducky, you should really write shorter posts.

I know....look who's talking :D

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 Post subject: Re: Guns
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:56 am 
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mfreak wrote:
BTW Ducky, you should really write shorter posts.

I know....look who's talking :D


I think yours is slightly longer, cant tell, they look pretty similar in length.

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