It is currently Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:18 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Palestine gaining statehood
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:12 pm 
Captain
Captain
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:06 pm
Posts: 797
Gender: male
Discussion & Debates (and world events) have kind of sunk a bit. Gonna try and liven it up. I was thinking of putting this in world events, but this topic is much more discussion and debate orientated. Any moderators who disagree can feel free to move the post across, doesnt bother nor phase me in the slightest.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-2 ... at-un.html

Spain backs Palestine bid at UN for statehood


http://news.yahoo.com/germany-not-back- ... sAzSfQtDMD

Meanwhile Germany will not.

Also of important note : "France and Russia have already said they will support the proposal. No country has veto power in the General Assembly, so the U.S., which opposes the initiative, can’t block it."

If Palestine were to be recognised as an actual state. Israel will be accountable to international law (via ICC)

Israeli leaders would get into a lot of trouble for what they do in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Every Israeli leader who doesn't immediately make a policy of withdrawing all illegal settlements from East Jerusalem and the West Bank would be considered a war criminal.

In return, Im pretty sure to become a recognised state would require Palestine to make moves and assurances to persuade the UN (right now the UK will abstain, they will vote in favour if Palestine compromises/agrees to certain things such as not going to the ICC to mediate regarding the illegal settlements)

_________________
Image

-~~Retired Spammer~~-

~Agnostic atheist pastafarian~

Discussion+debates and World Events.


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Palestine gaining statehood
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:21 am 
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:09 am
Posts: 196
Gender: male
what a bunch of nonesense lol

first of all the general assembly can't accept them as a state, only the security council can. the general assembly can only grant them a status of observers (i hope i translated it correctly).

2nd, Israel will be blamed for being war criminals no matter what they do, the international law is bent over for that by an automatic anti-israeli majority. leaders of israel who withdraw from the territories, including removing settlements (one you calling illegal, not sure on what basis), were also been accused as war criminals by people like you. you will always find the reason to blame israel for this. you will never dare to call the palestinians war criminals, because fighting from within civilian population and targeting 100% civilians with missiles (preferable kindergardens, schools, school buses etc.) is not enough for you to call them that. you, of course, will find the excuse for them. again... international law being bent over...

3rd, the only reason that the palestinians went in that direction, the only thing that it will really give them is the ability to be in the international court in haag, so they can have a little bit more ability to bend over the laws in their favor.

bottom line, they will be approved because in the general assembly, you can even pass a decision that says that the sun shines in the night and the moon rise in the morning as long as you blame israel for it, but things will stay exactly the same as before, sorry to disappoint you.

you can recognize a state that doesn't exist, it still won't make it a state.

oh, and being such a caring australian, i promise i would give the palestinian half of israel, a minute after you give the aborigines their country back. they have much more rights on australia than the palestinians have on israel in any aspect.

_________________
BUL5 - LoM - UBL - F69 - XI

psg188 wrote:
There are a few lessons to learn here:
#5 Don't fight Avi


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Palestine gaining statehood
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:08 am 
Major
Major
User avatar
 YIM  Profile

Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:21 am
Posts: 2760
Location: Bangalore, India
Gender: male
There are a couple of things here:

1. Define what Palestine is? - Gaza? West Bank? Both together? If so based on what? Till date there has been no Palestine ever.

2. The PLO is officially recognized by Israel as the representative of the Palestinians. But then you have 2 different states - one in Gaza and one in the west bank ruled by 2 different entities that are mostly hostile towards each other. If the PLO is the legitimate representative here, dont you think the Palestinians need to be freed first from the terrorists called Hamas?

3. If the Hamas isnt taken out, its unrealistic to expect Israel to agree to statehood, because there is no guarantee that they wont be attacked by forces from within this separate country. So do you expect Israel to seriously put themselves at a disadvantage here?

_________________
Deadman - SYN
----------------
Image


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Palestine gaining statehood
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:07 am 
Captain
Captain
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:06 pm
Posts: 797
Gender: male
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/no ... od-un-vote

First off, it appears to be gaining traction

2nd, it seems aviturg has come out fists swinging.

1.
Quote:
resolution to change the Palestinian Authority's UN observer status from "entity" to "non-member state," like the Vatican, is expected to pass easily in the 193-nation general assembly
They gain statehood but not a member of the UN. They are already "observer status" if that is what you are saying.

2. Could you enlighten me as to how the ICC is predisposed to act against Israel in terms of charging war crimes?

It would hinge a lot on the "removing settlements (one you calling illegal, not sure on what basis)"

For one, it was obviously not Israeli land, Settlers move in and basically squat the land using force as a deterrant. Two, they are a big issue involved in obtaining peace in the region, for Israel it would be to stop the rockets, for Palestine it would be to stop the encroaching and taking of their land. If anything, expanding settlements in the west bank are stalling peace talks. Incentive for Israel to compromise on the settlements would actually do the peace talks well. Its not just me who considers them illegal, most of the world does as well.

Continuing on about me, thirdly, I have been merely acknowledging what will happen based on news reports, all my opening posts are deliberately objective analysis perhaps a line or two of my viewpoint, the first post is to start discussion not break them, your initial post on the other hand isnt generalised discussion, its extremely personal. Now we can take two paths, I am indifferent towards which one you pick, either, we can have a discussion of the actual event which is happening right now, or we can have an argument and fling personal attacks every second sentence. Again, it doesnt phase me at all (Ive done both several times here on BD alone), but Ill let you pick how you want this discussion to role out. Moderately or you escalating it.

Sure, in the past threads I have made my position clear as you make yours right now. Doesnt mean that it has to be all personal and finger pointing.

3. Or also the fact they have been trying to be accepted as a recognised state for years now (they tried and failed last year for example for full membership to the UN), this time they are aiming lower and it seems like they are going to succeed.

Please note. This is a move by the PLO in West Bank. Hamas in Gaza have lent their support for the move but the two governing organisations cannot be considered one and the same.

Btw. Palestine wont be the first country to be founded on the backs of terrorists and unfortunately, nor will they be the last. Stern Gang, Hagannah and Irgun commited bombings on hotels and marketplaces, massacres and ethnic cleansing and were integral in gaining a Jewish foothold in what was predominately a ethnically arabic and religiously islamic area. They formed militant groups and set up what would become Israel via force, via bombings, via terrorism.

Quote:
oh, and being such a caring australian, i promise i would give the palestinian half of israel, a minute after you give the aborigines their country back. they have much more rights on australia than the palestinians have on israel in any aspect.

Ethnically, Im 2nd gen Chinese, I was not part of any deals between the British and the Aborigines. I couldnt elect or elect against someone who had bad policies against the Aboriginal population, I cant change the past, the present? I can effect, Im alive, I can make my voice heard, my vote felt. Aborigines have tracts of sacred land, which count similiarly to Federal Reserves (cant be privatised or touched without express permission or what have you) which their "group" owns (a prominent example would be whichever group owns the area around Uluru. Although it brings in a lot of tourists who want to climb it, although the state suffers with its limitations as tourism declines, the government cant to anything since its considered too sacred for tourists to trash it/scale it anymore). Kalwoorie or however you spell it owns a slot of Victoria. Unfortunately, many aborigines simply merged with the society awhile back. Im just gonna put it out there that since they lack the cultural heritage and ties, they forfeit rights to the land since the ties are tenuous at best. They, aborigines, current immigrants, past immigrants, we all are, Australian.

West bank settlements.. yeah, you can do something about that. The current system of ignoring Palestine has borders since its not a state and slowly annexing it all for Israel really isnt the path that has a peaceful outcome. Tensions will only build as Palestinians become increasingly desperate and then a flash point will occur at which point Palestinians will be ethnically cleansed from the area and replaced with Israeli land and Israeli citizens. The final plan at this point is basically to push Palestinians into Jordan and thats about it. Close to 2 million Palestinian refugees have relocated to Jordan with around 338,000 are still refugees according to UNRWA who primarily oversee the refugee camps.

_________________
Image

-~~Retired Spammer~~-

~Agnostic atheist pastafarian~

Discussion+debates and World Events.


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Palestine gaining statehood
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:45 am 
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:09 am
Posts: 196
Gender: male
ok, i'm with you on that one. you want to talk facts, let's talk facts.
let's take it step by step so we make sure we understand each other.

the facts as i know them, please correct me if i'm wrong.

1947/8 - the UN decides on 2 states in Israel, jewish and arab. the jews accepted and declared an independent state. the arabs rejected and 7 arab armies invaded the newly born israel with a clear purpose of commiting a genocide and throw all the jews to the sea, to remind you, that was only 2 years after the holocaust. however, the jews won and the arabs lost.

1948-1967 - Gaza is a part of Egypt, the west bank is a part of Jordan. no one even dreamed of making a new arab state of "palestine" (funny enough the arabs can't even pronounce "palestine" because they can't pronounce "p"...). yet no one protested, no one asked to be recognized by the UN, and no one established PLO kind of organization etc.

1967 - Egypt put a blockade on Israel's sea ways which resulted in the 6 days war. Jordan has been asked to stay out of this, but they jumped in the fire and lost the west bank.

1988 - King Hussain of Jordan declared that Jordan disconnects itself from the west bank, and no longer has any claims on the land.

1994 - Jordan and Israel signed a peace treaty that included few minor border corrections and in which both states declared that they have no territorial demands from each other.

now a quick look to the times before 1948.
the land was ruled by the british occupation. before that, the ottomans. before that the mamlukes, before that the crusaders, before that the saudies, before that the byzants, before that the romans, and i stop here for a reason.
Now tell me... out of all those rulers of the last 2000 years, who does the land belongs to? and under which law would an arab village on this land be more legal than a jewish village?

please clear this point for me and we can move on.

one more thing to think about: let's say that in some misterious way the palestinians did gain some rights on the land. why would jewish villages be illegal there? we have hundreds of arab villages and cities in israel. no one claims that they are illegal... i mean... if there are to be 2 states, one jewish and one arab and you want all the jewish to be removed from the arab state into the jewish state, then why wouldn't you ask all arabs of the jewish state to pack their bags and leave to the arab state?...double standards maybe? nah... can't be... (just a thought, nothing to argue about i hope)

_________________
BUL5 - LoM - UBL - F69 - XI

psg188 wrote:
There are a few lessons to learn here:
#5 Don't fight Avi


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Palestine gaining statehood
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:42 am 
Captain
Captain
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:06 pm
Posts: 797
Gender: male
First off, keeping this thread updated about the topic http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20550864

Onto aviturg

Quote:
Palestinians win upgraded UN status by wide margin
The assembly voted 138-9 in favour, with 41 nations abstaining.


Pre 1947, as far back as 1920 even into the 1800s. There is tension between the Jewish and the arabic communities in the area, I mention specific groups like Stern Gang (Lehi), Haganah and its offshoot Irgun (who get absorbed into the IDF). These groups would all be considered terrorist groups, the warring has been going for quite a while.

1947/8. The arabs living under british imperialism are told they are to forfeit their land for the creation of Israel. Obviously, they go nuts, their white imperial overseers have decided to flood the area with white jews who are immigrating/fleeing from Europe (where anti semitism is still rampant even after the war). Obviously, the native population rejects this and go ape shizzle, nearby countries also go nuts. War begins, Israel succeeds. The 1948 war was originally between the Israelis and the Palestinian Arabs before the nearby Arab nations threw their support behind Palestine.

1948-1967 Many big claims from you, the general theme is that there was never a Palestine in this period, that Palestine never existed. While that may be true in a literal sense (heck, even today, after symbolic gains, Palestine isnt a real state, merely an upgraded observer state). So... Here are my counter claims.

Quote:
"On 21st September, after twenty-six days of discussion, the joint Syrian-Palestinian Congress issued a public statement to the League of Nations demanding: 1) Recognition of the independence and national rule (al-Sultan al-Qawmi) of Syria, Lebanon and Palestine" - Porath, 1974, p. 117.


PLO are founded in 1964

If you read Rashid Khalid's book in 1997, he argues quite well that modern Palestinian national identity arose as opposition to the rise of Zionism. This was back in 1909-1914 due to the constant conflicts in the area.

1967-1994 is basically Israel establishing and keeping its current modern boundaries.

Quote:
Now tell me... out of all those rulers of the last 2000 years, who does the land belongs to?

The people living there aka, the semitic people, both the Jewish semites and the Muslim semites. Look at this picture
Image

Those are all Palestinians but from the Jewish people who lived in the region (aka. not European immigrants), its indistinguishable. Because Anti semitic is linked to the Jews, many people dont know that the Palestinians are also Semites. The entire region there are the Semitic people. Race, creed, whatever, I am indifferent to, the people who live there and thus lay claim to it have the right to live there since they are actually living there and people coming in and encroaching are encroaching. Its like saying that China owns the land where every China town is in major cities, its ridiculous comparing it.

Now you ask me who the land belongs to and I answered poorly saying it belongs to both groups. However, both Palestine and Israel have laid claim to land, current illegal settlements is the use of force to move Palestinians out from their homes and property and to encourage Exodus from the region. Land taken via war is different and subject to different rules based on negotiations, etc. The arab villages in Israel are merely pockets of arab communities, they are Israelis. East Jerusalem is overwhelmingly muslim, but 98% are Israeli citizens. They are Israelis now. Geddit?

This is completely different from the way illegal settlements are set up and enforced (its by guns and the IDF btw) on land that is clearly owned by Palestinians who are not Israelis nor accept Israeli encroachment on their land. If you can somehow demonstrate that the 2 villages are similar then I would be extremely surprised.

Quote:
if there are to be 2 states, one jewish and one arab and you want all the jewish to be removed from the arab state into the jewish state, then why wouldn't you ask all arabs of the jewish state to pack their bags and leave to the arab state?...double standards maybe?


Here is the current problem, since Palestine isnt a state, Israel gets away scot free by pushing its borders into Palestinian land provided they have the upper hand in terms of military (they do). There is nothing close to 2 states right now, you have Israel on one hand and land they consider free game on the other (hence all the settlements). The other thing which I already addressed is that many arabs living in Israel are Israelis, they have citizenship, they sign up and fight in the IDF, they pay taxes to Israel and send their kids to school run by the Israeli government. Remember that picture I dropped earlier? They are all Semitic people. Just keep that in mind. Its not an us vs them attitude all the time, 20% of Israel is arabic in descent. You claim doubly standards but how about you actually make Palestine a state and negotiate borders from there? Ignore Gaza, only the PLO running the West Bank are stable enough. The thing is, all West bank Israeli settlements would have to be lost since for all intents and purposes, it does belong to Palestine and is on Palestinian land, their claim is stronger due to the nature of how the illegal settlements were created. But if Palestine isnt a state, then no one cares what they say, Israel keeps taking more land, tensions keep staying as high as they are and this bloodshed is not even close to stopping.

_________________
Image

-~~Retired Spammer~~-

~Agnostic atheist pastafarian~

Discussion+debates and World Events.


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Palestine gaining statehood
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:47 pm 
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 10:47 pm
Posts: 2419
Location: U.S.A.
Gender: male
Palestine was granted limited statehood yesterday. This doesnt make them a full member state, but it opens up more options for them and certainly puts them closer to the table.

Let us all hope that it simply leads to good things. I think that if there is to be any positive future, both sides are going to have to remove themselves from the past and stop playing "the chicken or the egg" with eachother with rockets and warfare. The Israelis and Palestinians are all humans being. I am a firm believer in the Lord, Allah, God...whatever name you choose if you choose one, and on some levels I see this whole world as some Grande experiment perhaps with the middle east and israel as the epicenter.

I often wonder how often god looks down at his rebellious arrogant children as they fire missiles and rockets and bullets and mortars at eachother and think to himself, "they just don't get it. Perhaps giving them reason and free will was a bad idea.." :lol:

Anyway, You guys debate way too well for me. I cant take part in these things without eventually ending up beating the heck out of my keyboard with firm strokes in anger :lol:, so I thought I'd just toss my two cents in there. Sorry if I offended you Ducky. I know how firmly athiest you are. ;) If it makes you feel better, I am essentially agnostic.

_________________
Battle Dawn Staff
Community Management Specialist
Technical Support
World Administrator
Music Composer

Welcome to the best free multiplayer war strategy game on the web!


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Palestine gaining statehood
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:14 pm 
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:09 am
Posts: 196
Gender: male
ducky, your post just shows how clueless you are about the situation here, the causes, and the current status.

at first i thought to just leave it, because you can't debate with someone that gets his "facts" from arab propaganda websites and my time is a bit valuable for me. but whatever, i will give it one more post...

there is a big difference between owning a land as a nation and owning a land as a private man. i own a land in miami does that makes it mine (i wish) hell, it doesnt even grant me citizenship and not even residency. you said that you are chinese living in australia... does that mean that from now on australia is yours, and all those new white people coming in there are illegal immigrants?

the "palestinians" never owned the land, so where the hell did you bring this "they saw their land taken by white people from europe" ?? all they were was cheap labor power brought by the ottomans from all over the arab world...
you throw "facts" that are not facts and then you base your arguments on it.
the haganah, etzel and lehi were terror organisations? they would be considered mother theresas comparing to the modest palestinian organization. and btw, "the hagganah" means "the defense" and was establish to protect jewish villages from arab armed gangs that would have murdered kids in their sleep (yeah, back then too, before israel and before the west bank). none of the 3 targeted civilians on purpose. there is one black dot of blowing up the headquarter of the british army that was located in king david hotel and resulted in many dead people. after that action, haganah gave to the british the heads of the etzel and lehi. go read and learn (google "the saison").
when a jewish family murdered by an arab terrorist, you will see hundreds of arabs in the streets celebrating.
when the twins were blown up in 9/11, the arabs in israel were celebrating in the streets the death of thousands of people, giving away candies. yeah, sure you will find a good excuse for them too. they are arabs, they are allowed to.

you want to play with quotes? there you go... i'm not gonna quote from israeli propaganda websites like you quoting from arabs. why bother, sometimes there are rare moments in which the arabs don't lie. you just need to be there when this rare moment appears.
so here, a quote from mr. Zahir Muhsein, PLO executive member in March 31, 1977:

[quote]
"
The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.


For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.
"
[end of quote]

Care to explain? might that be the reason why jordan never established a palestinian state in the west bank for almost 20 years of holding that land?...

please notice that i didn't use the bible, i didn't use the fact that last independent state that existed here was israel about 2000 years ago. i deliberately ignored all those in my claims.

what i'm saying is much simple. there is a given situation now. we hold the land of israel. you claim that it belongs to someone else and that we have to give it "back". all im saying is that you have to prove it first and then we can talk.
the fact that arabs lived here 100 years means nothing. my family along with a big jewish community lived in morroco for about 500 years. does that mean that we can claim part of morroco to be our jewish state? How about jewish communities in USA? they got there almost at the same time as the americans, how about we claim a jewish state in NY ?

next. villages. in the last 20 years, the only villages that were destroyed in israel were jewish ones. the only people who were deported out of their homes were jewish people. that's a fact - i challenge you to prove otherwise.

you tell me today to ignore gaza. you didn't say that 5 years ago. you told us to move out of gaza and get peace. so we moved out of gaza, leaving it to fatah (not hamas!) and we got an iranian terror base in our back yard. now you want us to repeat the same geniousity in the west bank, where at our most narrow point there is 16km from it to the sea. now you tell me how you can defend that, since i don't know.

israel keeps taking more land?? - another lie. since 1973, the area of israel is only decreasing. in fact it was decreased by 2/3. yeah, israel today is 1/3 than what it was after the 1973 war.
we no longer hold gaza, we gave away a lot of territories in the west bank, we gave sinai for peace (that is about to explode in our faces), and we gave some land to Jordan too.

i'm a science man, and i can read equations pretty well. and when i'm looking back in time i see a simple equation with the palestinians:

diplomatic agreements => more terror in both quantity and quality
military moves => relatively peaceful times
(i ofc can back it up with countless examples)
now you tell me, as a father who wants to protect his kids, which way i should pick.

so sometimes we have to be honest with ourselves and admit that unfortunately the bloodshed will never stop and that because the arabs will never accept jewish state in israel no matter what its borders are. their president said it clearly only a year ago (google it). the only peace they are willing to accept is with us on the other side of the coast, deep inside the sea, and i'm sorry, but this is kinda hard for us to accept.

by this way too long post i am done posting on that issue.

have fun in the far Australia, keep getting your information from arab propaganda and stay clueless.
cheers !

_________________
BUL5 - LoM - UBL - F69 - XI

psg188 wrote:
There are a few lessons to learn here:
#5 Don't fight Avi


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Palestine gaining statehood
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:26 pm 
Forum Admin
Forum Admin
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:12 pm
Posts: 1897
Location: Lancaster, UK
Palestinian Refugee sheds light on treatment of Palestinians in the Arab world.

Image
One day.

_________________
MGH, BYZ, =T=, XOXO, Neko, Meow, CAE, DRAW, ROTR, Sky, EVIL, RAWR, MiG
Leader of BD's first ever 100k+ alliance. (Sky - 100740 score - M1A2)
Kongregate World Admin
Galaxy 1+2 World Admin


Top
 

 Post subject: Re: Palestine gaining statehood
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:15 am 
Captain
Captain
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:06 pm
Posts: 797
Gender: male
Green writing time.

Quote:
at first i thought to just leave it, because you can't debate with someone that gets his "facts" from arab propaganda websites


Thats cool, the only sites I link is wikipedia for extra information, any points I make are based upon readings. Why the hell would I go to arab propaganda websites, I cant read that shizzle. Maybe you should lay off the far right fringe zionist teachings, oh wait, that was an Ad Hominem. I thought we agreed on being civil, attacking the remarks and not the person, clearly I was mistaken and expected too much from you.

Quote:
the "palestinians" never owned the land, so where the hell did you bring this "they saw their land taken by white people from europe" ?? all they were was cheap labor power brought by the ottomans from all over the arab world...


But they, their parents and the generations of people before them had lived there. Like I said, their nationalism is tied as response to the rising Zionism in the area and like I said, there were minor skirmishes regarding conflict as far back as 1880. You, yourself say that the fighting occurs before Israel was even close to formation and yet say Palestine and its adherants didnt exist. Pfft, you claim I am the one reading propaganda. At least I claim both Israel and Palestine exist. Your position that Palestine doesnt exist seems very similiar to Hamas who refuse to acknowledge Israel's existence.

They were the original populace governed over by the Ottoman empire (including the jewish semites here), I wouldnt say that all Palestinians are simply people from all over the arab world brought in by the Ottoman empire.

Where did you pull that one from?

Mine is from history, the British who had the area under their control, partitioned it and was creating a jewish state within it, splitting the land into an arab and a jewish one, which, invariably due to the Jewish exodus from anti semitic Europe, would result in a "white" population influx. Certain areas which Palestinians had been living in for years (Im talking houses, societies, towns, communities, all axed up and told to relocate) were merely requisitioned and given to Israel, Im sure the same happened for Jews in regards to Palestine since its the British and they didnt care that fondly for colonies. Im still looking for the fault in my statement but sure enough, it seems I am correct and you are screeching.


Quote:
you said that you are chinese living in australia... does that mean that from now on australia is yours, and all those new white people coming in there are illegal immigrants?


Austalia is mine[ours], I am Australian, I share Australia with other Australians. There is a system in place where you can aquire more Australia (purchase of property). Just like some Palestinians living in Israel (over 1 mil) can claim Israel is theirs, they are Israeli. The system in Israel has given them rights and thus claims and ownership to that land. The system in Australia means the same thing, I can own land unlike a serf or a slave.

I would not be too happy if a New Zealander bulldozed my home and annexed the land by force for New Zealand. I would be quite angry. Especially when the NZ army begins to defend that land with its defence force which isnt even New Zealands and I lose all claims to it. I might be angry enough to take up arms against it, form a resistance of sorts, maybe even get into that gang/organisation that says they can take out New Zealand and return what is mine. It was the place where I grew up, where I called home. Most countries would claim NZ's annexed lands, lets call these towns settlements, these settlements were illegal but there was no jurisdiction to punish them for that. Oh wait, Australia is a state, we can appeal to the ICC and have them tried for war crimes severely punishing the people involved as their travel and ability to move about is limited. We can make moves through the UN assembly for embargoes and alternative measures to force since force is a battle we cannot win. We certainly cant beat the New Zealand's advanced military compared to us. Luckily Australia at least counts as a state to the world.


Quote:
haganah, etzel and lehi


Hagannah was integral in getting a Jewish foothold in Palestine, see the British's "White Paper". They directly undermined a process to create a dual state by inflating Jewish numbers in Palestine. Also due to the them becoming the IDF, a lot of Hagannah are senior military members and call the shots since they were there from the beginning with the leadership skills to get to the top.

They also killed ~260 innocents when they blew up a boat.

Alright, Hagannah are the moderate large primary paramilitary force that killed 260 using explosives. Etzel would be the more extremist offshoot. These are the guys who bomb market places full of crowds.

Alright, Etzel are the extreme paramilitary force responsible for repeated bombings on civilian targets. Lehi is the more extremist offshoot. These guys assassinated important figures (UN, British, it dont matter) and supported Fascist Germany under Hitler. Notable other than the assassinations was the Deir Yassin massacre in which 100-250 civilians were killed, some were obviously deliberately killed (Note Hagannah were involved in the taking of the town as well). This was one of the pivotal points in 1948 before Israel's independance. It was a massacre (dont be a moron by denying it) since Jewish authorities condemned it as well. So here we have it, a 'legitimate' act of terrorism used for the creation of Israel.

Please, dont demean yourself in defending Etzel/Lehi, its sad to see and painful to read. Hagannah could be defensible. Lehi and Etzel are not. Make distinctions yo. Yes, Hagannah purged the ranks of the Jews of undesirables. Yes, Hagannah and Etzel were also defenders but you cant sit there with a straight face and say the Hamas are not defenders of Gaza.


Quote:
when a jewish family murdered by an arab terrorist, you will see hundreds of arabs in the streets celebrating.


This is exactly the kind of situation I dont want in the world, unfortunately, current policies and actions actually encourage rather than deter this behaviour. You dont want to breed hate, you dont want to breed the next gen of killers by your actions. And yet, that is exactly what Israel is doing.

Quote:
i'm not gonna quote from israeli propaganda websites like you quoting from arabs.

I quote scholars you moron, not race. I am in university and hold scholars in high regard. Especially those with commendable recognitions and merit. Especially those with decades of specialized understanding in their chosen field of work. I didnt pick some random "arab" I specifically chose an intellectual who clearly has a deeper understanding of the issue than you or I.

Rashid Khalidi has 3 decades of published work, get off your racist high horse. If you had even an inkling how difficult it is to get published and the hoops you have to jump through for it to be "good enough" for publishing you would step back down and take a seat and shut up. Rashid was born in USA and is a professor at a US college. I used his work as reference to the growth of the Palestinian national identity, something very important to this discussion if you have the levels of literacy to understand it. In other words, learn to read bro.


Quote:
...he argues quite well that modern Palestinian national identity arose as opposition to the rise of Zionism. This was back in 1909-1914 due to the constant conflicts in the area.


Lets see who you have chosen to quote. A regarded scholarly individual of Israel? A prominent man of thought? No. A misquote from one individual from one faction which was Pro-Syria which was part of the PLO. This guy wanted an arabic nation stretching across the middle east. The mere fact that you misquoted it demonstrates you are copy pasting from *CENSORED* sources, most likely extremist fringe pro israel ones.

"The Palestinian people does not exist" != "We are ONE people" Here is the actual version. Note how it isnt covered in fecal matter since it didnt have to be pulled out of ones nether regions to prove a point that is borderline indefensible.


Quote:
Between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese there are no differences. We are all part of ONE people, the Arab nation. Look, I have family members with Palestinian, Lebanese, Jordanian and Syrian citizenship. We are ONE people. Just for political reasons we carefully underwrite our Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new tool to continue the fight against Israel and for Arab unity.
A separate Palestinian entity needs to fight for the national interest in the then remaining occupied territories. The Jordanian government cannot speak for Palestinians in Israel, Lebanon or Syria. Jordan is a state with specific borders. It cannot lay claim on - for instance - Haifa or Jaffa, while I AM entitled to Haifa, Jaffa, Jerusalem en Beersheba. Jordan can only speak for Jordanians and the Palestinians in Jordan. The Palestinian state would be entitled to represent all Palestinians in the Arab world en elsewhere. Once we have accomplished all of our rights in all of Palestine, we shouldn't postpone the unification of Jordan and Palestine for one second.


Jordan didnt establish a Palestinian state because Jordan couldnt. Since when did other countries make states, all nation states have to make the claim themselves and based on the exodus of Palestinians from the first conflict, being part of Jordan was fine. Getting encroached via illegal settlements and held away by force is not.

Quote:
please notice that i didn't use the bible

You want a protip when arguing with me? Dont use the bible. You are better off without.

The last state to control the area properly as part of its functioning body was the British. The last independant state was too far back for any rights of claim to still be established due to the number of changing hands the power of the land has resided in. That said. I mention specifically using an authoritarian view on the matter who is a distinguished source (Rashid, you know, that guy you brushed off as merely "arab") that Palestinian nationalism arose as a response to the rise of Zionism in the area. Just as the need for a Jewish state arose via Zionistic nationalism, Palestinian nationialism decrees that a Islamic state is needed or it already exists but isnt recognised, the demographics there have all the nationalistic pride if they werent forced to exodus so regularly, some are happy in Israel/Jordan/USA/wherever they went and settled down, others arent.

Quote:
there is a given situation now. we hold the land of israel. you claim that it belongs to someone else and that we have to give it "back"

Nope, never said that, I said that the Palestinians could use the ICC to try and establish deals to regain land that illegal settlements have taken but my opinion is simple.

1. Stop the illegal settlements.
2. Both nations become states, both recognised, it doesnt matter what one side says about the other in that Israel/Palestine are not states they recognise, tough luck.
3. Some illegal settlements are highly established containing tens of thousands of Jews, the redrawing of borders will be difficult but it will have to occur. Fresh/New settlements in the last XX years will be dismantled (exceptions and provisions exist) and returned to the new Palestinian nation. Frontier and farming settlements are lost.

Gaza can burn for all the PLO cares, Gaza can burn for all Israel cares. Gaza is too tricky to deal with due to Hamas being volatile and erratic. Otherwise, this process is a compromise, no side wins, no one is happy, but stability of some sort is assured.

The current system of Israel to constantly expand settlements is just not on. Did you see where I mentioned tens of thousands? The number is actually in 100 000s where Israelis have firmly planted themselves onto that land which is clearly not theirs. Unfortunately, some of those settlements are very entrenched and unlikely to budge. Newer settlements knew the risks they took when they expanded onto land they deemed their religious right but had no right over.


Quote:
in the last 20 years, the only villages that were destroyed in israel were jewish ones. the only people who were deported out of their homes were jewish people. that's a fact - i challenge you to prove otherwise.

These illegal settlements arent considered illegal settlements because they are in Israel, they are considered illegal because they encroach on Palestinian land. Of course Im not going to find villages destroyed by Israel on land in Israel owned by Palestinians. WTF are you smoking?

Quote:
since 1973, the area of israel is only decreasing. in fact it was decreased by 2/3. yeah, israel today is 1/3 than what it was after the 1973 war.

Yes and if the British were to conquer all of Israel, Australia and the US tomorrow, they havent increased their country size at all, why, at the height of the British empire they had a solid slice of the world and a bit under their control. Again, flawed logic, flawed argument. Try again bro.

Quote:
i'm a science man

Thats just adorable.

Quote:
diplomatic agreements => more terror in both quantity and quality
military moves => relatively peaceful times


Military moves that dont genocide the population and seed hate will only breed the next generation of freedom fighter. Diplomatic agreements, although tenuous, have far better reaching consequences. Jordan and Israel came to border agreements via diplomatic means. You are one of those guys who actually think that might makes right while never standing at the other end of the barrel of the gun.

Quote:
...that because the arabs will never accept jewish state in israel no matter what its borders are.

Well at least you are a state, have comfort with that. Israel doesnt consider settlements illegal since Israel doesnt consider Palestine a Sovereign nation thus, doesnt have the legal right over the region. A foreign nation cannot bulldoze your house down, build a new house on top and protect the land with its military force without severe global repercussions.

Edit* @Tom, I read through some of that reddit AMA on the day it was put up. Pretty decent read.

_________________
Image

-~~Retired Spammer~~-

~Agnostic atheist pastafarian~

Discussion+debates and World Events.


Top
 

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours



You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
WarLingo Android Mobile Game

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Copyright Tacticsoft Ltd. 2008   
Updated By phpBBservice.nl