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 Post subject: Discussion of an admin (Joe)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:20 pm 
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To all mods, admins, or staff in any way, I know you might have been instructed by Seth to remove any posts or topics I create about this, however as I believe that it is any player's right to discuss whether an admin is still performing as he should, I think I am fully in my right to create this thread.

The discussion or rather opinion/fact-finding mission that I want to start here is about Admin Joe. The last times I have played a world by Admin Joe, I have been disappointed by his performance, and from what I have seen on the forums lately I believe I am not the only one. However as my suggestion to replace him by an admin who can be more active is a rather radical suggestion, it makes sense that the only way this will actually work out is if a lot of people post their opinions.

First things first, I have nothing against Admin Joe personally. He is a nice guy, and I know he has a busy fulltime job and that that is also the reason that he can not be very active on Battledawn. I would just like to clear that up, I in no way have anything against Admin Joe personally. What I am arguing for here is to remove him as Admin, because I believe is doing this job worse than others could do it.

I shall begin by describing my personal experiences with Joe. A long time ago, in early 2011, we decided to come to .com with a Kong team. We were going to play on F6, a 3 tick world that was admined by Joe. The trouble started when the world ended at an earlier tick than he had broadcast, however that wasn't that bad. The world didn't start on time, that wasn't all that bad either.

In the spoiler I have placed screenies of our skype chat that era. Of course it is possible to say that some player reports are unreliable, however I don't think it is possible to believe that we lied about what was happening in our own alliance chat for a month straight. All these screenies are from our alliance chat in March and April 2011.



Quite some screenies, I am aware of that. I did not copy every single complaint we had, but the gist is that when we were playing against SoLD with our Kong team, we had accounts popping up, spamming range at us and being deleted a few ticks later, Joe simply not responding to obvious multi attacks on us (at least 10 times), Joe not doing anything about rampant and obvious farming by SoLD, us being flamed at quite excessively about which nothing was done, or Joe simply not even reading our messages.

Later on M1 I had an equally bad experience with Joe, although this time it was more focused on not responding to my messages and not banning multies until they had run well out of metal to use on troops and where the time between reporting and acting was well over 24 hours. Sadly I have no screenies of this as I was mostly solo that era and did not have the time to chat a lot.

Either way, if I was the only one who had such an encounter with Joe, I would gladly let it slip. However I have heard of many people having bad experiences with Joe, and I am not talking about being biased or "racist" here, simply about the fact that he is quite a bit more inactive than many other admins are.

Therefore this is not only a discussion, but also partly a suggestion. My suggestion is to find one (or more) admin(s) that have the time to admin a world efficiently and justly, and that not only do their task ingame but also interact with the community. Seth is not only an admin but also a community manager and regularly helps out on the forum, Ilona and Simmen both regularly post or help clarify updates. Therefore I do not believe that it is impossible to find a new admin that would be good, and I believe that the main reason that Joe still is an admin is that he has simply been an admin for so long that him being an admin is not under question at all. In my opinion it is not good when someone is unquestioned simply because he has been there for a long time, and I believe there should be a honest review of whether it would be possible to find a better and more active admin than admin Joe.

As I said before, this is not meant personally against Admin Joe. He is simply the most inactive admin on the team, and I believe he should be replaced by someone more active. It is nothing against Joe, it is because I believe Battledawn would be better off with a more active Admin than Joe. Also, I do know that the reason Joe is less active is that he has a fulltime job, so he can not even help being so inactive. However I am looking at this from the perspective of Battledawn. More active admins are better able to not only catch cheating faster and therefore let it influence gameplay less but are also far more able to help whoever is in need of help and therefore improve the satisfaction of users.

If you agree with us needing to find a more active and better admin, please do say so. If you think I am a complete moron or that I am wrong in some way, please, do not hesitate to say so :D

For those too lazy to read the entire thread, what I am suggesting is finding a more active and better Admin to replace Joe, as he simply can not be as active and therefore not as helpful and good at catching cheating on time as other people potentially could be.

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Last edited by Milanos on Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:50 pm 
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I see absolutely nothing here that constitutes anything more than a baseless accusation.

I also see that you are trolling Joe, and I grow very tired of your antics. Ive tried and tried to be reasonable with you, but you persist in being a troll. What is worse, is that you attempt to justify your trolling as some kind of righteous "fact finding mission", when in fact, you are just looking for other people to join your little troll train in hopes that you can eventually make it into a lynch mob!

This is absolutely abhorrent behavior. In light of the fact that I have asked you nicely to stop, and you completely ignored me in your quest to troll, I believe the time for being polite has come and gone.



Therefore, you have exactly one hour to do the following.

1.) remove all complaints and claims against Joe for which you do not have HARD evidence to PROVE that they are as they are claimed.

2.) remove all instances of foul language from the screenshots you posted here.


Anyone else who has a complaint to post, fine. BUT, you had better make sure that you have some sort of PROOF to back the claim up. I will NOT stand for baseless claims in an effort to troll admin Joe.

Thank you.



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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:03 pm 
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Seth, I am in no way trolling Joe. As I said before I have nothing against Joe personally, and I would like you to explain how I am trolling him.

Quote:
I also see that you are trolling Joe, and I grow very tired of your antics. Ive tried and tried to be reasonable with you, but you persist in being a troll. What is worse, is that you attempt to justify your trolling as some kind of righteous "fact finding mission", when in fact, you are just looking for other people to join your little troll train in hopes that you can eventually make it into a lynch mob!


What I am hoping for is that since I can not convince you that it might be time to find a better admin, other people that post can.

Quote:
This is absolutely abhorrent behavior. In light of the fact that I have asked you nicely to stop, and you completely ignored me in your quest to troll, I believe the time for being polite has come and gone.


I believe you should always stay polite, no matter what happens. Furthermore I am in no way on a quest to troll, as I said earlier. I don't really see how you can call this trolling, please enlighten me.

Quote:
Therefore, you have exactly one hour to do the following.

1.) remove all complaints and claims against Joe for which you do not have HARD evidence to PROVE that they are as they are claimed.

Anyone else who has a complaint to post, fine. BUT, you had better make sure that you have some sort of PROOF to back the claim up. I will NOT stand for baseless claims in an effort to troll admin Joe.


It is impossible to have hard evidence, because to do so I would have to be an admin and have access to the messages sent by Joe, the times he was online and in general find evidence in a way that no normal user can do.

Did you know that Lance Armstrong was convinced mostly on testimonies? People simply saying what they have experienced can count as proof too.
And again, I am not trying to troll admin Joe. Neither is it baseless, everyone who has played that era with me knows that I am not lying and that this is what happened that era.

Quote:
2.) remove all instances of foul language from the screenshots you posted here.


Working on it.

Edit: Done.

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Last edited by Milanos on Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:06 pm 
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If we cave to baseless claims, then you should have been banned a long time ago for outpost farming. I suppose if your logic is to be followed, it is not too late for that.

This is not the lance armstrong case. Nor is this a court of law. If you have no proof, you have no claim, and it is trolling. Remove them, or I am sorry, but you will force me to come down hard on you for it.



Tick tock...

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Anyone else who has a complaint to post, fine. BUT, you had better make sure that you have some sort of PROOF to back the claim up.


Since when do people need to include proof in their complaints? Out of the, i'm sure, many complaints over the years towards Joe and anything else relating to this game and the running of it.. Have you dismissed all of them that weren't backed up with "proof"?

Serious question. Nothing to do with milanos and his trolling team.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:13 pm 
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Diazepam wrote:
Quote:
Anyone else who has a complaint to post, fine. BUT, you had better make sure that you have some sort of PROOF to back the claim up.


Since when do people need to include proof in their complaints? Out of the, i'm sure, many complaints over the years towards Joe and anything else relating to this game and the running of it.. Have you dismissed all of them that weren't backed up with "proof"?

Serious question. Nothing to do with milanos and his trolling team.


No. The complaint in itself does not always have to be backed immediately and directly with substance, BUT that is not to say that it should not be backed up with substance indirectly. Dredging up some players rattling on about joe from ages and ages ago is no basis for anything, and has no hope of showing any type of evidence of any wrongdoing. You cannot substantiate or debunk them what so ever, so they are completely pointless.

I can say though, that since Milan started this crap a while ago, I started following Joe without letting anyone know, just to see if there was any basis in any of the things he was saying. Not only did I find no basis, but I found Joe to be doing a great job.

So, back to the issue. Baseless. So old that you cannot hope to defend against, or substantiate any of it, because the proof is so long gone that it doesnt even matter any more. In these screenshots, I see an AWFUL lot of this...




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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:16 pm 
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Diazepam wrote:
Quote:
Anyone else who has a complaint to post, fine. BUT, you had better make sure that you have some sort of PROOF to back the claim up.


Since when do people need to include proof in their complaints? Out of the, i'm sure, many complaints over the years towards Joe and anything else relating to this game and the running of it.. Have you dismissed all of them that weren't backed up with "proof"?

Serious question. Nothing to do with milanos and his trolling team.


Indeed. Except for me "Milanos and his trolling team".

Seth wrote:
If we cave to baseless claims, then you should have been banned a long time ago for outpost farming. I suppose if your logic is to be followed, it is not too late for that.

This is not the lance armstrong case. Nor is this a court of law. If you have no proof, you have no claim, and it is trolling. Remove them, or I am sorry, but you will force me to come down hard on you for it.



Tick tock...


Hah, that is a rather funny comparison you make there, as I was never ever shown any proof at all by any admin that would show me as OP farming, even though I explicitly asked for it several times.

My proof is in the many people that played this world with me and experienced it with me. If I have no proof, I only have my word. You can call it an opinion if you want, but you should not remove it. I am not flaming at Admin Joe in any way, I am simply saying what I experienced on that world. Seth, we both know I can not give the proof in messages or online times as there are few who can see that, and I am not one of those.

Edit:

Quote:
No. The complaint in itself does not always have to be backed immediately and directly with substance, BUT that is not to say that it should not be backed up with substance indirectly. Dredging up some players rattling on about joe from ages and ages ago is no basis for anything, and has no hope of showing any type of evidence of any wrongdoing. You cannot substantiate or debunk them what so ever, so they are completely pointless.


That is why I created this thread, to get more opinions and more current "substance".

Quote:
I can say though, that since Milan started this crap a while ago, I started following Joe without letting anyone know, just to see if there was any basis in any of the things he was saying. Not only did I find no basis, but I found Joe to be doing a great job.


That is good for you. I have a Skype conversation with you where you say:

[21-10-2012 15:18:13] Seth: You are entitled to your opinion all day long
[21-10-2012 15:18:17] Seth: just not in my help desk.
[21-10-2012 15:19:43] Seth: Ive been watching joe...and he doesnt seem to be under performing.
[21-10-2012 15:19:57] Seth: Granted, he doesnt have all of the time other admins have, but it is what it is.

You also use some inpeccable logic.
[21-10-2012 15:16:57] Seth: so, being that joe has a day job and a family, I dont think I need to formulate an opinion.
[21-10-2012 15:17:06] Seth: if he was that horrible, then his worlds would not be populated.
[21-10-2012 15:17:22] Milan: No, that is not true. You can be a horrible admin and still have very populated worlds. Regardless of who admins E1, it will be a populated world.
[21-10-2012 15:17:28] Milan: You can be a horrible admin and hand out many bonuses.
[21-10-2012 15:17:33] Milan: Or lower the cost of boosts.


Quote:
So, back to the issue. Baseless. So old that you cannot hope to defend against, or substantiate any of it, because the proof is so long gone that it doesnt even matter any more. In these screenshots, I see an AWFUL lot of this...


As I said, this is my personal experience. I was hoping this thread would attract more people to hear their experiences and "opinions".

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Last edited by Milanos on Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:17 pm 
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so all these threads and what not you see about joe popping up quite often, are all wrong? that so many people complaining are just wrong? you never see any thread complaining about you or simmen or ilona

thought i'd ask

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:19 pm 
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No Milan. Let's clarify this. How many people exactly are in all of those screens? 2? 3? 4? This hardly constitutes "everyone".

What is more, this is from a bygone era where not even an admin can substantiate any of it one way or the other, which makes it BASELESS.

Therefore, I go on what I see now, and right now and in the visible past, Joe has done a good job.

I am not going around on this anymore. You have 40 minutes.


OmegaXII wrote:
so all these threads and what not you see about joe popping up quite often, are all wrong? that so many people complaining are just wrong? you never see any thread complaining about you or simmen or ilona

thought i'd ask


Links? I get posts about me too from time to time. Also, Joe has come in and defended himself and set the record straight in any post that comes immediately to mind in the recent past. So, like I said. Link to it. Show something. Saying "all these posts" is general, and baseless. I believe I already said how I feel about that.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:21 pm 
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Seth wrote:
No Milan. Let's clarify this. How many people exactly are in all of those screens? 2? 3? 4? This hardly constitutes "everyone".

What is more, this is from a bygone era where not even an admin can substantiate any of it one way or the other, which makes it BASELESS.

Therefore, I go on what I see now, and right now and in the visible past, Joe has done a good job.

I am not going around on this anymore. You have 40 minutes.





If you want, I can show you at least 10 people from that one chat who share my experience and opinion. Neither is it baseless, it is BASED ON my experience. Yes, I can not show you a hard fact like "From tick 300 to 400 Joe did not log in and therefore exceeded the 24 hour limit!". Of course I can not do that for that era, neither can I do that for any current era. Getting proof in that fashion against Admins is impossible because there is a fundamental power difference, admins can see a lot if not everything a player does on BD, players can not see what admins do and when they do it.

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