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 Post subject: Re: THIS IS REALLY BAD!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:08 pm 
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Sadrik wrote:
Wtf is going on with u!?

In Fantasy 3, there is an alliance: "The Third Reich" Tag is SS, was NAZIS before SS, i told the admin and nothing happens! I see this very bad! u dont care from nazis?? there is a lot of jews in this game (i am one of them).

and this is not the first time i see admins ignore things like that, i reported player for telling me anti jew things.. admin saw and ignored! im really disapointed from the admin (same admin both worlds)



Yep it still joe bashing week. Just to clarify this player with the Nazi emblem etc... i have received lots of the msgs on it... As you all know i dont allow the use of it because of the issues it causes. No i did not ignore your request on this guy. I have responded back to you all, what i made the mistake was allow this guy to long of a chance to follow my warnings instead of banning the person. As you all know i rather fix a issue then just ban a player when it comes to this kind of thing. Some people dont see a issue with using these kind of people because they feel the reaction is not that important to them. But its very important to other players. I have, and had changed the alliance name and the colony name, and issued warnings to this player and alliance since hte first msg. Sadly they pushed my warninsg to the limit trying to go around using the nazi name by using other slang or german phrases to go around it.

When i logged on today i recieved lots of msgs about the person continuing to use the name. Which my final warning in place ment he doesnt care if he was banned or not. Therefor the user has been banned and i changed the names for good. If at any time you see any of the rest of the alliance try to take leadership and continue the name please report it. It will not go unheard. Again yes i made the mistake of giving this person to long of a chance to fix the issue.

But as you all will see, this matter should be takin care of now.

Good day everyone

Admin joe

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 Post subject: Re: THIS IS REALLY BAD!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:18 pm 
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no no no Ponk

To this I'd never agree and i can't see where you got this wisdom :lol:
No Nazi will ever have the right to have an opinion in here.
As you might know, I am german. And every Nazi stuff will be deleted by me or any other admin.
Same of course with any other radical opinion. Battle Dawn is a global game and we are very proud that we have so many religions and nationalities in here.

Where else can you find alliances with muslims, christians, jews and many more fighting side on side?
Thats what we stand for: Tolerance and acceptance
And if we have to warn or ban for that reason - so be it. We do believe that everyone has a second chance and usually when we don't like a tag or a name we drop a message first.
And this has not much to do with having an opinion. Its more that we like to encourage having more opinions.
Nothing is only black or white.

Offending a religion is still a no-go



edit: Joe replied already... but still I'd like to say this. I hope its clear now

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 Post subject: Re: THIS IS REALLY BAD!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:25 pm 
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Seth wrote:
Milan, you know that Joe works a day job.

What we need you to do, is help keep things in order and help keep people patient, not stoke the fires and sew the seeds of "an uprising against Joe".

Please, I have been extremely civil with you on this matter up to this point. Please do not make me have to keep reiterating this same point with you! Thanks!


Again Seth, I will never deny that Joe has a day job. I will not deny he is in any way busy with other stuff. What I am suggesting is that if an admin is indeed so busy with a day job and many other activities that he can not do his task in a timely and correct fashion, then perhaps it is time to start thinking about finding a person who is better suited for the job.

Quote:
[21-10-2012 16:21:35] Seth: my opinion is
[21-10-2012 16:21:44] Seth: if you are going to rant about someone being horrible such as you
[21-10-2012 16:21:51] Seth: then back it up with something that can be checked
[21-10-2012 16:22:04] Seth: dont come in ranting and raving how horrible he is without being able to have something to show for it.
[21-10-2012 16:22:13] Seth: otherwise you are not helping anything.


Seeing as this is possible evidence and you have explicitly asked me to back up my rants with something that can be checked, I would say I am doing what you asked of me.

Quote:
What we need you to do, is help keep things in order and help keep people patient


I believe the issue is not in keeping people patient, but to not force them to have to be patient. That might sound like a political statement but it is simply the way I see it. There are admins about whom you never see posts in the forums, because they do their job correctly. For those that are admined by these admins, there is no need for me, or anyone else, to keep people patient.

Realistically, we both know this is not the first time a complaint about Joe has arisen. This one might be based on mere suspicion, the one a few days ago might have been based on a misunderstanding, and so on. However you simply can not deny that there have been many posts about Joe doing something wrong one way or another, and you can not deny that if there are that many posts and negative opinions about an admin, there might be something that is wrong.

I have been both a player and an admin, I have seen what happens from both sides. I know that while I was a player and I first played on a .com world, which was a Joe world, not only me but my entire team was horrified by how he admined. Colonies popping up to spam pure range and me and then being deleted, a friend of mine being threatened to be banned for asking for a name change too often (3 times, because he would not change his name) while a SoLD player had his name changed during that same time, a relic that was "glitched" being taken away from a (non-donator) alliance to re-appear next to the biggest boosting alliance, and much, much more. That was one round only. Now you might say that this is baseless, however there is an entire group of people that will tell you the same. I will inquire whether we have kept screenies because sadly I personally have not.

As an admin, I was again dissatisfied with how active Joe was in the admin chats. However as I believe I should not use my admin experience as an argument, I will refrain from saying anything else about the matter from that point of view.

All I can say is that although you might have checked on his "activity markers" and concluded that he was not doing anything wrong, activity is not everything. It is possible to log every hour and be a terrible admin. There are many (written) accounts of people that have been dissatisfied with Joe, and on Skype you have yourself said:

Quote:
Ive been watching joe...and he doesnt seem to be under performing.
[21-10-2012 16:19:57] Seth: Granted, he doesnt have all of the time other admins have, but it is what it is.


Even you admit he is less active than the other admins. I believe a fine line is being walked here and that the reason he is still on as admin is that he was one of the first admins that was hired. However objectively he currently is the worst of all the admins around and I sincerely believe that Michael should be seriously looking for replacement.

Seth, you have indeed been civil. However the other option that I have than posting about this in the help desk where not many people read it is by starting a discussion in the general forums, and I doubt whether that would in any way make you happier than what I am doing here.

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 Post subject: Re: THIS IS REALLY BAD!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:09 pm 
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Ilona wrote:
Where else can you find alliances with muslims, christians, jews and many more fighting side on side?
Thats what we stand for: Tolerance and acceptance

This is contradicting itself.
A religion, as you set the tone of diversity for, (when you used Muslims, Christians, and Jews as an example) is a set of moral beliefs of what's right and wrong.
By this logic, Nazism is a religion.*
Ilona wrote:
Where else can you find alliances with muslims, christians, jews and many more fighting side on side?

By you not accepting Nazis into this statement, you deny them equality of treatment in this game.
Ilona wrote:
Thats what we stand for: Tolerance and acceptance

According to this, BD stands for toleration and acceptance.
Is it toleration to deny Nazis their opinion?
Is it acceptance to ban them for expressing their opinion?
No.
As I stated, you're contradicting yourself.
Ilona wrote:
No Nazi will ever have the right to have an opinion in here.

I strongly disagree with this statement, as nothing/no one can remove the right to have an opinion. It was Nazi opinion that Jews caused the crash of the German economy and that they needed to be dealt with. It was Jewish opinion that the Nazis were terrible people and should not be socially acceptable.
Is either of the two groups wrong? No. That's how opinions work.


To go away from the main issue since people from it are involved on both sides, we'll use another standpoint. Let's use the Hiroshima nuclear bombing.

The United States thought the Japanese were horrible people. This was due to the Pearl Harbor attack and the Bataan Death March. Thousands of Americans were killed between these two events, not to mention other lesser events in the war. They took revenge for this by dropping the atomic bomb. The United States believed that this was appropriate, justified action based on what the Japanese had done.

Japan thought the Americans were horrible people. They couldn't believe that the United States had bombed a Japanese city and destroyed it. They didn't think that the United States' decision to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima was at all justified. They also believed Japanese resentment of Americans was appropriate.

Did the countries have different opinions?
Yes.
Did the opinions directly conflict eachother?
Yes.
Is either country right?
No.
Do both have the right to their opinion?
Yes.


Everyone has their opinion. If you disagree with their opinion, you don't have to associate with them or even acknowledge their existence.

I rest my case.



*Don't bring beliefs of sovereign beings, origins of the universe, and life after death into it as soon as you see the word "Religon." For the purpose of this discussion, "religion" refers to the morals of a group and nothing more.

(Side note: Before anyone starts trying to say that I'm supporting Nazism, I'm not. Personally, I am against Nazis and what they stand for. That said, I still do respect the fact that they have the right to their opinion.)

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 Post subject: Re: THIS IS REALLY BAD!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:20 pm 
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DELETED post


Last edited by donn on Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: THIS IS REALLY BAD!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:26 pm 
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i don't normally stick my nose in this kind of thing but i agree with ponk. like any other religion its their right to believe in what they want to, its not our job to say what they believe is wrong for any reason, its not our place. in some way every religion offends someone in some way. they have their right to their own opinion, just my thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: THIS IS REALLY BAD!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:33 pm 
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The bottom line here is that it is up to the admin to take action or not, one way or the other. It is up to him to make the call, and it should be considered that these calls can be difficult to make, as it is near impossible to please everyone.

If this were on my world, I would only let it go so far as it stays being a name. Only after appealing to the players to choose a different name. At first, its not required to oblige, but The moment anyone tries to role play these people or glorify the death and hate that this sort of "religion" :roll: supports... Well, At that point, I would change the names myself to something like "i eat boogers" or "i dont shower" and issue a warning. If it carried on, then the player would be banned to an extent varied in accordance to the severity of the offence.




As for the...other stuff being drug into this thread, I will not ask again for it to cease. 3 strikes, and yer odddaaaa heeeeeerrrre.

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 Post subject: Re: THIS IS REALLY BAD!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:54 pm 
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Ryan wrote:
i don't normally stick my nose in this kind of thing but i agree with ponk. like any other religion its their right to believe in what they want to, its not our job to say what they believe is wrong for any reason, its not our place. in some way every religion offends someone in some way. they have their right to their own opinion, just my thoughts.



Quick response to this,

Nazism (German: Nationalsozialismus; English long form National Socialism) was the ideology of the Nazi Party and Nazi Germany

This in terms is not refering to a relegion in my understanding but more of a movement that a group of individuals had attempted to do. Alot of people where hurt, Killed, etc... from this belief. Though some people have thicker skin then others. As it stands, this moment in time puts a bad taste into alot of people mouths and honestly this as many other subjects dont belong in game use. It has a very Negitave reaction and is not really a postive statment.

So i been strict on allowing the use of this name, agenda etc... This has always been my policy and will stay that way.

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 Post subject: Re: THIS IS REALLY BAD!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:02 pm 
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Admin Joe wrote:
This in terms is not refering to a relegion in my understanding but more of a movement that a group of individuals had attempted to do. Alot of people where hurt, Killed, etc... from this belief.


Ponk wrote:
A religion, as you set the tone of diversity for, (when you used Muslims, Christians, and Jews as an example) is a set of moral beliefs of what's right and wrong.
By this logic, Nazism is a religion.*

*Don't bring beliefs of sovereign beings, origins of the universe, and life after death into it as soon as you see the word "Religon." For the purpose of this discussion, "religion" refers to the morals of a group and nothing more.


Religion, belief, view, standpoint. Same thing. In this discussion Nazism is viewed as a belief, yet the word religion is being used.
If you would rather use "Belief" than "Religion", then here:
Christianity = Belief.
Judaism = Belief.
Muslim = Belief.
Nazism = Belief.
Nazism still the same and is able to be compared to things that most people would call a "religion."

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 Post subject: Re: THIS IS REALLY BAD!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:05 pm 
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Ponk wrote:
Admin Joe wrote:
This in terms is not refering to a relegion in my understanding but more of a movement that a group of individuals had attempted to do. Alot of people where hurt, Killed, etc... from this belief.


Ponk wrote:
A religion, as you set the tone of diversity for, (when you used Muslims, Christians, and Jews as an example) is a set of moral beliefs of what's right and wrong.
By this logic, Nazism is a religion.*

*Don't bring beliefs of sovereign beings, origins of the universe, and life after death into it as soon as you see the word "Religon." For the purpose of this discussion, "religion" refers to the morals of a group and nothing more.


Religion, belief, view, standpoint. Same thing. In this discussion Nazism is viewed as a belief, yet the word religion is being used.
If you would rather use "Belief" than "Religion", then here:
Christianity = Belief.
Judaism = Belief.
Muslim = Belief.
Nazism = Belief.
Nazism still the same and is able to be compared to things that most people would call a "religion."



In the end, sorry this is not a debate on the help desk forums. I made my stance clear on the subject. If you wish to address any more issues with what Ilona or any had to say you can msg them directly. Thank you.

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