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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:04 am 
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Quote:
embargo? such a strict embargo ensures that gaza will always be dependent and poor.


It isnt because of that Gaza is dependent and poor. Its because they dont do anything constructive other than supporting groups like the Hamas. That is bound to *CENSORED* your growth. It wasnt Israel that started attacking everyone around. Others did.And Karma can be a *CENSORED*.

Quote:
my bad, correct method regarding soldiers is outright killing them. terrorism is the use of force on a civilian population for political, ideological or something goals by a non state entity.
seeing as how palestine is recognised by most as a state. technically is just warfare, not terrorism.


It is not warfare. You abduct soldiers, torture them, demand ransom. That is terrorism. Fighting is different from abudction.

Quote:
or maybe, just maybe, you use the tunnels to smuggle weapons. all aid gets checked before entering gaza, if you read the article, its more about how stringent the process to deliver aid is. its so stringent, so tedious, that aid is practically being denied access, hence the speaking out.


I agree its stringent. But its a necessity. Otherwise Israel would suffer.

Quote:
yeah, but you dont say leftist support for workers. nor do you say leftist support for the LGBT community nor leftist support for anti war movements or leftist support for feeding children from low income households through "leftist programs" (see recent controversy regarding the GOP budget and its cuts). in fact, i rarely ever hear someone say "leftist" because it is such a low blow.


Call it whatever you want. I thought leftists was much better than Anti-Semitists.Or morons with their head up their asses :P :lol:

Quote:
they were quick to condemn the use of human shields, israel doesnt face routine humanitarian crisis though


*GASP* They condemned it!! That makes everything okay!! The fact that Israel does not face humanitarian crisis is your assesment of it. I consider a missile thrown into Israel, falling in no mans land, a humanitarian crisis, cuz it is a threat to life. The missile had a 50% probablity to hit a civilian and kill him.

Quote:
what about the sound logic that terrorism encourages terrorism.


And what about the sound logic that you should fight someone that threatens you and neutralize that threat? Or is it common sense? When someone has invested himself in killing you, you would be a sitting duck if you didnt strike fear in his heart. Israel knows this very well. I mean think about the last time, they just sat there doing nothing. 6 million of them died. No one showed any mercy then, did they?

Quote:
just a large majority feel slighted by israel and do support hamas.


Yes, a LARGE majority. Equal to the population of Israel, dont feel slighted by Israel, they feel burning hatred for Israel. They would slaughter them if they had the werewithall.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:16 am 
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mfreak wrote:
It isnt because of that Gaza is dependent and poor. Its because they dont do anything constructive other than supporting groups like the Hamas. That is bound to *CENSORED* your growth. It wasnt Israel that started attacking everyone around. Others did.And Karma can be a *CENSORED*.

<link is causing 501 error, its in the previous post near the other 1 billion dollar claim>
because israel has blockaded most of the roads of west bank, west bank's ability for economy suffers, could use 1 bil less dollars in aid per year. imagine that, 1 bill less reliance on overseas benefactors (iran), that would lower external influence in palestine.


Quote:
It is not warfare. You abduct soldiers, torture them, demand ransom. That is terrorism. Fighting is different from abudction.

and yet, prisoner of war exchanges happen in most major conflicts.
again, terrorism (NON STATE ENTITY? NOPE. AGAINST CIVILIANS? NOT ALWAYS.)
its rarely ever a ransom, its usually prisoner exchange. free X number of palestinians from the jails, notably mr Y and mr Z. israel comes back with a counter offer, etc.



Quote:
I agree its stringent. But its a necessity. Otherwise Israel would suffer.

how much so? they can still perform all necessary checks on incoming goods, they just need to lower the paperwork to a point where UN officials arent accusing them of blocking aid. at this point, palestine suffers, perpetuating an environment of neglect and struggle. perfecting the terrorist recruiting grounds?

Quote:
Call it whatever you want. I thought leftists was much better than Anti-Semitists.Or morons with their head up their asses :P :lol:

what about people who support palestine? that is far more accurate, isnt insulting and crass, as well as actually making sense and not just sounding like a low blow.


Quote:
*GASP* They condemned it!! That makes everything okay!! The fact that Israel does not face humanitarian crisis is your assesment of it. I consider a missile thrown into Israel, falling in no mans land, a humanitarian crisis, cuz it is a threat to life. The missile had a 50% probablity to hit a civilian and kill him.
[/quote]

please do quote the stastics that make you think 1 in 2 rockets fired into israel kills. no really, if you do, i will post a video of my smashing my face against a wall until bloody, until then, i will giggle at your attempt at exxageration. most of the rockets fired are by head strong teenagers prone to influence from hamas. they have zero military training, they are given a rocket and off they fire. not particularly accurate, deadly, yes, lethal? not quite.

[*]humanitarian crisis.
[*]destruction of property that belongs to a foreign state during occupation
[*]denial of medicinal supplies resulting in civilian population dying from preventable causes
[*]denial of media groups to report on situation
[*]denial of supprot groups (a lot of groups are simply turned away from the area)
[*]constant embargo resulting in permanently stunted economy resulting in much lower future growth.
[*]white phosphorous? (contentious)
[*]how about the fact a couple thousand children have been killed? that looks pretty bad.

no really, ill post a video of my hitting my face against a wall until i bleed, not joking if you can provide source, otherwise retract that frivolous claim


Quote:
And what about the sound logic that you should fight someone that threatens you and neutralize that threat? Or is it common sense? When someone has invested himself in killing you, you would be a sitting duck if you didnt strike fear in his heart. Israel knows this very well. I mean think about the last time, they just sat there doing nothing. 6 million of them died. No one showed any mercy then, did they?

oh, use force?? like they have been doing for the past since they got there?
how has that turned out for them, let me check my documents...
...
...
nope.
last time they werent receiving 4 million dollars in military funding from the US per day enabling them to easily combat threats in the area.
if they were to attempt to neutralize the effect, they would have to commit genocide to the palestinians as any survivors would be quite peeved that their loved ones were just incinerated in many consecutive air strikes. but dont worry, let us use force, because we all know that iraq and afghanistan were a success. that shovelling resources into vietnam to show them the mighty power of war worked well. no. some forces thrive on violence, im not saying sit by idly, im suggesting a different path from this bloody and battered one that we have walked for decades with no end in sight.
but yeah, another air strike, that will definitely NOT have hamas in the streets preaching the israeli hate, it will definitely NOT give support to his words that israel is an evil country when collateral damage occurs, it will most definitely NOT increase hamas support and numbers, because israel has done airstrike before and every time they have, hamas has been completely destroyed. MOST DEFINITELY.


Quote:
Yes, a LARGE majority. Equal to the population of Israel, dont feel slighted by Israel, they feel burning hatred for Israel. They would slaughter them if they had the werewithall.

and there are conservative, right winging israeli members who have been cited, on record, to push palestine into the sea. to kill palestinian children.
2006 elections. hamas did not call for an end to israel. fatah lost due to public seeing corruption and ineffectiveness in government.

Quote:
Hamas won the 2006 elections, winning 76 of the 132 seats to Fatah's 43

majority. not all of palestine. for every 4 supporters of hamas in that election there were 2 supports of fatah (PLO) and 1 supporter who didnt align with either. this does not count the non voting population who may have been disillusioned by corruption in fatah's ranks, but by no means hamas supporters.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:26 pm 
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Why are we talking about Israel and Palestine in Battle Dawn. :?:


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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:51 pm 
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Quote:
because israel has blockaded most of the roads of west bank, west bank's ability for economy suffers, could use 1 bil less dollars in aid per year. imagine that, 1 bill less reliance on overseas benefactors (iran), that would lower external influence in palestine.


Israel hasnt blockaded the West bank for nothing. They have blockaded it cuz of terrorism. So the blame solely is on the Palestinians, not on Israel. Sure if Israel opened everything and withdrew their miliatary everything will flourish. So will terrorism.

Quote:
and yet, prisoner of war exchanges happen in most major conflicts.
again, terrorism (NON STATE ENTITY? NOPE. AGAINST CIVILIANS? NOT ALWAYS.)
its rarely ever a ransom, its usually prisoner exchange. free X number of palestinians from the jails, notably mr Y and mr Z. israel comes back with a counter offer, etc.


POW exchanges are valid against valid armies. The hamas is a terrorist group. They are illegal and illegitimate and therefore any of their violent acts including kidnapping are terrorist activities. Without exception.

Quote:
how much so? they can still perform all necessary checks on incoming goods, they just need to lower the paperwork to a point where UN officials arent accusing them of blocking aid. at this point, palestine suffers, perpetuating an environment of neglect and struggle. perfecting the terrorist recruiting grounds?


You cant say that unless you actually face the issue. Israel needs absolute and total control over its borders. They cant afford to let a fly escape without them knowing about it. Cuz Israel is tiny. Its very easy to attack the country. Hence the need for extremely strict procedures. Like I said, all the UN does ever is accuse someone of something. Its a useless organization that has failed to prevent even one war. I wouldnt go by what these guys complain about. They have zero understanding about the situation on the ground.

Quote:
what about people who support palestine? that is far more accurate, isnt insulting and crass, as well as actually making sense and not just sounding like a low blow.


People who support Palestine are not people that take into consideration Israels difficulties. Noone does that today. Thats the problem.

Quote:
please do quote the stastics that make you think 1 in 2 rockets fired into israel kills. no really, if you do, i will post a video of my smashing my face against a wall until bloody, until then, i will giggle at your attempt at exxageration. most of the rockets fired are by head strong teenagers prone to influence from hamas. they have zero military training, they are given a rocket and off they fire. not particularly accurate, deadly, yes, lethal? not quite.

[*]humanitarian crisis.
[*]destruction of property that belongs to a foreign state during occupation
[*]denial of medicinal supplies resulting in civilian population dying from preventable causes
[*]denial of media groups to report on situation
[*]denial of supprot groups (a lot of groups are simply turned away from the area)
[*]constant embargo resulting in permanently stunted economy resulting in much lower future growth.
[*]white phosphorous? (contentious)
[*]how about the fact a couple thousand children have been killed? that looks pretty bad.

no really, ill post a video of my hitting my face against a wall until i bleed, not joking if you can provide source, otherwise retract that frivolous claim



Its statistics itself that puts the probability at 50%. When a missile is fired, it has a 50% probability of hitting its intended target, and in this case civilians. Its like flipping a coin. 50% probability for a head or a tail. Also headstrong teenagers firing useless rockets? Really? Do you know what missiles they use? what range they have? Ill tell you.

They use and according to my LIMITED knowledge:

-Kornet Anti Tank missile from Russia (Recently used on a school bus). It is a second generation ATGM intended to deal with main battle tanks and to engage slow and low flying helicopters.
-Qassam rudimentary steel rocket. A useless one invented by the Hamas, for cheap production.
-BM 21 Grad rockets - With a range of upto 40 kilometres (Keep in mind Israel is only about 50-60 km wide). Also keep in mind that they fire rockets from Sinai to cover Southern Israel.
-Zelzal 2 - Iranian SRBM. Range 210 Km. Used by the Hezbollah.

So you see they are not that ill equipped. They are quite lethal. The reason Israel does not suffer casualties is because of their air defence. The recent Iron dome system is working miracles. Plus they have bomb shelters etc build in their cities. You cannot blame that on Israel. The very reason they need these defences itself show that there is a threat to life.

Quote:
oh, use force?? like they have been doing for the past since they got there?
how has that turned out for them, let me check my documents...
...
...
nope.
last time they werent receiving 4 million dollars in military funding from the US per day enabling them to easily combat threats in the area.
if they were to attempt to neutralize the effect, they would have to commit genocide to the palestinians as any survivors would be quite peeved that their loved ones were just incinerated in many consecutive air strikes. but dont worry, let us use force, because we all know that iraq and afghanistan were a success. that shovelling resources into vietnam to show them the mighty power of war worked well. no. some forces thrive on violence, im not saying sit by idly, im suggesting a different path from this bloody and battered one that we have walked for decades with no end in sight.
but yeah, another air strike, that will definitely NOT have hamas in the streets preaching the israeli hate, it will definitely NOT give support to his words that israel is an evil country when collateral damage occurs, it will most definitely NOT increase hamas support and numbers, because israel has done airstrike before and every time they have, hamas has been completely destroyed. MOST DEFINITELY.


I am not for wars and airstrikes. But right now that is how you get peace in the region. You bomb the *CENSORED* out of them, they lay low for a year or two. Then you do it again. And this is dumbest way one can fight these guys, Ill give you that. But there is absolutely no solution apart from this. They wont compromise ever. They wont let Israel survive, even if it means their death. So its something that cant be solved using propaganda etc that you suggested.

BTW you cannot compare Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan to this conflict. That US war was manufactured. This one is existential and very real.

Quote:
and there are conservative, right winging israeli members who have been cited, on record, to push palestine into the sea. to kill palestinian children.
2006 elections. hamas did not call for an end to israel. fatah lost due to public seeing corruption and ineffectiveness in government.


The Hamas does not need to call for anything. Its in their charter. Its their motto. Secondly, right wing politicians obviously are a bit fascist, but they are there everywhere. But so are the hamas. They would push the Jews into the sea. If Israel puts its weapons down, they will be dead and gone. If the Palestinians do, then there will be peace. This is the hard truth.

Quote:
majority. not all of palestine. for every 4 supporters of hamas in that election there were 2 supports of fatah (PLO) and 1 supporter who didnt align with either. this does not count the non voting population who may have been disillusioned by corruption in fatah's ranks, but by no means hamas supporters.


Voting means nothing. Its whoever is in power that matters. Americans voted Obama into power, but couldnt turn anything around now could they? Even if only
10% of Palestine supports the Hamas, you cant guarantee the Hamas will disband. They are a terrorist group, and they will be one for eternity.

Quote:
Why are we talking about Israel and Palestine in Battle Dawn.


Its the discussions and debates column and we like debating world affairs or anything in general. Anything that gives me an opportunity to stir up some *CENSORED* :D If you have a point for or against feel free to make it.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 7:17 am 
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Shadow78 wrote:
Why are we talking about Israel and Palestine in Battle Dawn.:?:

Board index » Non-Battle Dawn Boards » Discussion And Debates

my colour dammit! D:<

this is discussion and debates not to do with battle dawn, just discussion and debate.

mfreak wrote:
Israel hasnt blockaded the West bank for nothing. They have blockaded it cuz of terrorism. So the blame solely is on the Palestinians, not on Israel. Sure if Israel opened everything and withdrew their miliatary everything will flourish. So will terrorism.

so the only option in this matter is to perpetuate an ongoing system of poverty and suffering? again. trying to perfect those terrorist recruitment grounds?

Quote:
POW exchanges are valid against valid armies. The hamas is a terrorist group. They are illegal and illegitimate and therefore any of their violent acts including kidnapping are terrorist activities. Without exception.

when israel initiated the gaza offensive, would it be deemed terrorism when palestinians took up arms and shot at israelis inside gaza with tanks, airstrikes and high palestinian civilian mortality?

im just curious now what you think terrorism to be. because the actual definition of terrorism is violence to cause terror for political/ideology/other purpose by a non state entity against civilians, ie. Hamas 10 years ago with suicide bombers in israel. hamas firing rockets at israeli civilian population. but NOT the kidnapping of armed military personnel and holding them at ransom for Palestinian exchanges.


Quote:
You cant say that unless you actually face the issue. Israel needs absolute and total control over its borders. They cant afford to let a fly escape without them knowing about it. Cuz Israel is tiny. Its very easy to attack the country. Hence the need for extremely strict procedures. Like I said, all the UN does ever is accuse someone of something. Its a useless organization that has failed to prevent even one war. I wouldnt go by what these guys complain about. They have zero understanding about the situation on the ground.


they can. THEY CAN FULLY CHECK WHAT COMES IN. i do not deny them that, all countries check incoming goods. what im mentioning is the effing obvious if you actually read the links i provide. that is. israel is making aid organisations jump through hoops, making the process long and arduous, preventing aid getting in efficiently when it needs to. aka. when israel launches an offensive and cuts off medical supply routes.

and im assuming you are a high ranking official that has all the knowledge of what is happening? im slowly getting through these points but i am expecting you to give me links to numbers that support your understanding of the situation, documents that support the fact that 1/2 rockets fired kill.

boo hoo, i dont like the UN. wahhh. how many wars have you prevented? i wouldnt go by what you complain about.


Quote:
People who support Palestine are not people that take into consideration Israels difficulties. Noone does that today. Thats the problem.

nice baseless statement.
have you not noticed me repeatedly acknowledge the situation at hand and rather than accept the official response of "we will continue lobbing rockets and airstrikes at each other until hamas becomes normal" i offer a variety of options that can not only quell but hopefully end the violence. the current path has no end, its bloody, stubborn and pointless.
people who support palestine =/= leftist.
people who support palestine = people who support palestine

low blow bro.


Its statistics itself that puts the probability at 50%. When a missile is fired, it has a 50% probability of hitting its intended target, and in this case civilians. Its like flipping a coin. 50% probability for a head or a tail. Also headstrong teenagers firing useless rockets? Really? Do you know what missiles they use? what range they have? Ill tell you.

They use and according to my LIMITED knowledge:

-Kornet Anti Tank missile from Russia (Recently used on a school bus). It is a second generation ATGM intended to deal with main battle tanks and to engage slow and low flying helicopters.
-Qassam rudimentary steel rocket. A useless one invented by the Hamas, for cheap production.
-BM 21 Grad rockets - With a range of upto 40 kilometres (Keep in mind Israel is only about 50-60 km wide). Also keep in mind that they fire rockets from Sinai to cover Southern Israel.
-Zelzal 2 - Iranian SRBM. Range 210 Km. Used by the Hezbollah.

So you see they are not that ill equipped. They are quite lethal. The reason Israel does not suffer casualties is because of their air defence. The recent Iron dome system is working miracles. Plus they have bomb shelters etc build in their cities. You cannot blame that on Israel. The very reason they need these defences itself show that there is a threat to life.

im not gonna smash my face into a wall until its bloody until you offer up some source for the 50% kill rate for rockets fired. its pretty hard since you claim the iron dome already stops more than that. this makes it highly unlikely im going to smash my face into the wall. but still, i am going to be generous and wait upon your source otherwise it would appear your are talking out your @ss.

good job ignoring the humanitarian bit. because humanity is clearly not needed in this discussion.


Quote:
I am not for wars and airstrikes. But right now that is how you get peace in the region. You bomb the *CENSORED* out of them, they lay low for a year or two. Then you do it again. And this is dumbest way one can fight these guys, Ill give you that. But there is absolutely no solution apart from this. They wont compromise ever. They wont let Israel survive, even if it means their death. So its something that cant be solved using propaganda etc that you suggested.

BTW you cannot compare Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan to this conflict. That US war was manufactured. This one is existential and very real.

why are you so sure that this solution is the only way? why are you so pressed to insist on airstrikes against palestinian populations because some palestinians insist on rocket attacks against israeli populations? why do you refuse to try new paths? potentially better paths? paths that can get out of the dead lock?
the situation is in no means easy, but you insist that the only way forwards is to continue backwards. to continue the cycle of the past decade.

oh but i can compare this to vietnam, iraq and afghanistan. it was USA thinking they can simply use muscle and win within years. 2 years tops. low casualties, i mean, we have nato, we have better weaponry, better tech, better knowledge and systems. lets use force and win this. brute force is best force. war is all about slamming two forces together and the better force wins. thats what it is all about. vietnam? guerilla warfare, cant tell civilians from militants. my lai massacre happened. iraq, there is that footage of an apache helicopter firing on a journalist carrying a camera because they thought it to be an rpg. family with children in a van come to save the journalists who had been shot. van deemed to be full of terrorists. fired upon. no survivors. oh and the blackwater mercenaries in both countries. absolute monsters in some instances. what does this result in in countries like afghanistan and iraq? constant militant recruitment.
doesnt matter if its "manufactured" the civilian population doesnt care


Quote:
The Hamas does not need to call for anything. Its in their charter. Its their motto. Secondly, right wing politicians obviously are a bit fascist, but they are there everywhere. But so are the hamas. They would push the Jews into the sea. If Israel puts its weapons down, they will be dead and gone. If the Palestinians do, then there will be peace. This is the hard truth.

ignore the charter. its from 1988. in the election from 2006, hamas did not call for the end of israel, you are using the election results to justify your outlook of the palestinian people. and i am telling you now, they did not elect hamas into office while hamas was calling for an end to israel. (they didnt call for an end to violence, but they werent rejecting the existence of israel)
Quote:
In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons

source
face it, hamas stopped suicide bombers in 2005, they stopped rocket attacks during the ceasefire. however during this time, israel was still violating some charters of its own by demolishing palestinian homes and expanding settler populations. moves towards peace have already been made. things are looking far better than back in the 1990s. the palestinian people are willing to embrace peace, yes, there are still nay sayers, but there would still be nay sayers in israel too. if you continue to rely on the outlook that all palestinians want israel to burn, then you are the kind of person who is counter productive to the peace process.


Quote:
Voting means nothing. Its whoever is in power that matters. Americans voted Obama into power, but couldnt turn anything around now could they? Even if only 10% of Palestine supports the Hamas, you cant guarantee the Hamas will disband. They are a terrorist group, and they will be one for eternity.

BUT YOU STATED YOURSELF THAT HAMAS = PALESTINE BECAUSE OF THE ELECTIONS
what is it?
hamas is forcing and subjugating the entire populace from a minority position despite being in power (unlikely)
a majority support hamas (nope)
hamas has power, has connections, but not all of gaza supports hamas (most definitely)
if you are gonna B.S. be consistent in your B.S.
KKK are a terrorist group, their influence used to be massive and quite powerful. look at them now. a handful of white supremicists who do nothing but speak hate. hardly the threat they once were. hamas can be toppled, but not with brute force, like ive been saying a thousand times, violence reinforces and supports hamas's cause, it legitimizes their actions.

i consolidate my point. hamas =/= palestine. stop treating them like they do

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 8:54 am 
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Quote:
so the only option in this matter is to perpetuate an ongoing system of poverty and suffering? again. trying to perfect those terrorist recruitment grounds?


You first give me a solution to eradicate terrorism. Then we can talk about removal of blockades etc., Israel never had those blockades pre 1967. Following the Six-Day war they had to.

Quote:
when israel initiated the gaza offensive, would it be deemed terrorism when palestinians took up arms and shot at israelis inside gaza with tanks, airstrikes and high palestinian civilian mortality?

im just curious now what you think terrorism to be. because the actual definition of terrorism is violence to cause terror for political/ideology/other purpose by a non state entity against civilians, ie. Hamas 10 years ago with suicide bombers in israel. hamas firing rockets at israeli civilian population. but NOT the kidnapping of armed military personnel and holding them at ransom for Palestinian exchanges.


Again, Palestine fighting against Israel, if they had a legitimate government and an army is fine. But during the Gaza offensive there were no soldiers. All they did was launch rockets etc., Now when the Hamas is a terrorist group, you cannot consider one of their actions as being terrorism (targeting civilians) and the other to be a fair military move. The group itself is deemed terrorist. Therefore they have no legitimacy, no legality. Everything they do is a terrorist action.

Quote:
what im mentioning is the effing obvious if you actually read the links i provide. that is. israel is making aid organisations jump through hoops, making the process long and arduous, preventing aid getting in efficiently when it needs to. aka. when israel launches an offensive and cuts off medical supply routes.


When you set up a system of checks and blockades, there is bound to be inherent beaureaucracy. Of course these Aid groups will find it difficult to get through all the checkpoints. This is because of Israels strict screening process which even the civilians are subjected to. This is necessary.Its not like they target aid groups and then purposefully delay them. Its just the way the system is set up. When you have terrorism on one hand you cannot make it easy for anyone.

Quote:
and im assuming you are a high ranking official that has all the knowledge of what is happening? im slowly getting through these points but i am expecting you to give me links to numbers that support your understanding of the situation, documents that support the fact that 1/2 rockets fired kill.


No I am not a high ranking official, but I understand the situation well as I have followed it for quite sometime. You need proof that half the rockets are fired to kill? LOL. What else do you think they are doing, just havin fun? lmao!!

Quote:
boo hoo, i dont like the UN. wahhh. how many wars have you prevented? i wouldnt go by what you complain about.


What do you mean? You support the UN or you dont? I dont. They are a joke.

Quote:
nice baseless statement.
have you not noticed me repeatedly acknowledge the situation at hand and rather than accept the official response of "we will continue lobbing rockets and airstrikes at each other until hamas becomes normal" i offer a variety of options that can not only quell but hopefully end the violence. the current path has no end, its bloody, stubborn and pointless.
people who support palestine =/= leftist.
people who support palestine = people who support palestine


You do acknowledge ISraels situation. However none of your solutions take Israel into consideration. You are putting the onus on Israel as if Israel was the one that started this mess. They didnt. It was the Arabs. The responsibility lies with them. The problem is with them. Israels crime is that they were successful in defending themselves and are in command now. But they cannot compromise if their enemies cant.

Quote:
im not gonna smash my face into a wall until its bloody until you offer up some source for the 50% kill rate for rockets fired. its pretty hard since you claim the iron dome already stops more than that. this makes it highly unlikely im going to smash my face into the wall. but still, i am going to be generous and wait upon your source otherwise it would appear your are talking out your @ss.


I said it already. The 50% kill probability is a reality every time they launch a rocket. If I throw a stone in public, the probablity that it will hit a person is 50%. Its Math FFS. However Israel reduces that probablity to near Zero because they have stellar air defence. But dont tell me its alrigth that these guys fire rockets then, because Israel has air defence. Whether or not Israel has air defence isnt the issue. The issue are that the rockets are being fired into Israel.

There are obviously some that escape evne that defence. See how it is when a rocket falls on a house:



Quote:
good job ignoring the humanitarian bit. because humanity is clearly not needed in this discussion.


There is no humanity in war. This is a fact. Humanity is also not a one way street.

Quote:
why are you so sure that this solution is the only way? why are you so pressed to insist on airstrikes against palestinian populations because some palestinians insist on rocket attacks against israeli populations? why do you refuse to try new paths? potentially better paths? paths that can get out of the dead lock?
the situation is in no means easy, but you insist that the only way forwards is to continue backwards. to continue the cycle of the past decade.


Because of the history. I dont refuse to do anything. Its the Palestinians. You are completely absolving them of any responsibility and putting the onus on Israel. It doesnt work that way. The responsibility solely and completely lies with the Palestinians. Put down your arms, and then recognize Israel, get to the table to talk. Israel even tried the Oslo Accords and other treaties, none of them work. Why? Palestininans dont approve of them. So its all easier said than done when you want propaganda. But it wont work. An idea might be good. But it also has to be practical.

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oh but i can compare this to vietnam, iraq and afghanistan. it was USA thinking they can simply use muscle and win within years. 2 years tops. low casualties, i mean, we have nato, we have better weaponry, better tech, better knowledge and systems. lets use force and win this. brute force is best force. war is all about slamming two forces together and the better force wins. thats what it is all about. vietnam? guerilla warfare, cant tell civilians from militants. my lai massacre happened. iraq, there is that footage of an apache helicopter firing on a journalist carrying a camera because they thought it to be an rpg. family with children in a van come to save the journalists who had been shot. van deemed to be full of terrorists. fired upon. no survivors. oh and the blackwater mercenaries in both countries. absolute monsters in some instances. what does this result in in countries like afghanistan and iraq? constant militant recruitment.
doesnt matter if its "manufactured" the civilian population doesnt care


Yeah doenst matter if its manufactured. But you cannot compare both teh same way. One is defending and trying to control the situation. The other is the aggressor. You cant compare both wars, they are not the same.

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ignore the charter. its from 1988. in the election from 2006, hamas did not call for the end of israel, you are using the election results to justify your outlook of the palestinian people. and i am telling you now, they did not elect hamas into office while hamas was calling for an end to israel. (they didnt call for an end to violence, but they werent rejecting the existence of israel)


Cant ignore the charter. Ask them to change it then. If they dont, it is their manifesto. Period. Whether or not they call for an end to Israel. That is a rhetoric. The whole point of their fight. It doesnt have to be repeated. Its old story. Hamas also killed the Fatah. It was civil war. Its also a fact.

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but cannot be changed for internal reasons


There you go. What internal reasons? The reasons that the hamas believes in. Annihilate Israel. Unless they make it official that argument wont stand.Also rocket attacks didnt stop during the ceasefire. It increased to dangerous levels. Hence the Gaza War.

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hamas is forcing and subjugating the entire populace from a minority position despite being in power


They could very well be. They are terrorists. They could be doing it just like the LTTE in Sri Lanka, where the LTTE used to terrorize not just Sri Lankans but also the Tamils they said they were fighting for.

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hamas has power, has connections, but not all of gaza supports hamas (most definitely)


Not all of course. Most though. Otherwise they wouldnt be in power.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:24 am 
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mfreak wrote:
You first give me a solution to eradicate terrorism. Then we can talk about removal of blockades etc., Israel never had those blockades pre 1967. Following the Six-Day war they had to.

ahaha, thats cute. how to "eradicate terrorism".

those blockades shouldnt be lifted, but they should be slackened. that iranian aid which a lot of palestine relies upon is influencing palestine, a good deal for all would be to encourage palestinian economic independance.


Quote:
Again, Palestine fighting against Israel, if they had a legitimate government and an army is fine. But during the Gaza offensive there were no soldiers. All they did was launch rockets etc., Now when the Hamas is a terrorist group, you cannot consider one of their actions as being terrorism (targeting civilians) and the other to be a fair military move. The group itself is deemed terrorist. Therefore they have no legitimacy, no legality. Everything they do is a terrorist action.

opening schools. is it TERRORISM? fox news reports.
defending against a hostile incursion by enemy forces. YOU BET YOUR *** ITS TERRORISM.

this is why my definition makes sense, and when thoroughly examined, yours is ridiculous. also mine is the official definition, so i guess i get some credence there.


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When you set up a system of checks and blockades, there is bound to be inherent beaureaucracy. Of course these Aid groups will find it difficult to get through all the checkpoints. This is because of Israels strict screening process which even the civilians are subjected to. This is necessary.Its not like they target aid groups and then purposefully delay them. Its just the way the system is set up. When you have terrorism on one hand you cannot make it easy for anyone.

and yet, this is exactly what a UN official has stated. quite contrary to what you are stating.


Quote:
No I am not a high ranking official, but I understand the situation well as I have followed it for quite sometime. You need proof that half the rockets are fired to kill? LOL. What else do you think they are doing, just havin fun? lmao!!

no, im waiting on supporting evidence that 1/2 rockets fired, kill. good for patching that up and stating that you arent an official.

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boo hoo, i dont like the UN. wahhh. how many wars have you prevented? i wouldnt go by what you complain about.

mfreak wrote:
What do you mean? You support the UN or you dont? I dont. They are a joke.

irrelevant. the organisation is necessary though to facilitate discussions.
what do i mean?

mfreak wrote:
I wouldnt go by what these guys (UN) complain about.

what i mean is you dismissing my evidence on the basis of "I DONT LIKE THOSE GUYS, ERGO, EVERYTHING WRONG". that unfair dismissal of my valid claims is a bit disappointing.

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You do acknowledge ISraels situation. However none of your solutions take Israel into consideration. You are putting the onus on Israel as if Israel was the one that started this mess. They didnt. It was the Arabs. The responsibility lies with them. The problem is with them. Israels crime is that they were successful in defending themselves and are in command now. But they cannot compromise if their enemies cant.

Im putting the onus on israel because israel can fix this mess. you, yourself stated that hamas is unwilling and then say that we have to wait for hamas to fix this mess. they are unwilling yet you are hoping that magic happens and they are willing.
are you being serious or just trolling?
israel has to compromise if peace is wanted. im expecting israel to be the better nation here, rather than resort to petty hate and squabble, i am putting the onus on the better country to be better. is that too much to ask for? because thats the message im getting from you. that israel is not the better country, that israel has to lower its standards to par with the countries around it.
i take israel into the equation by attempting to find a peace solution in this discussion as opposed to your self-defeatist attitude of "the continued civilian deaths on both sides is unresolvable and must be accepted" what part of the eventual dismantling of hamas is not good for israel? isnt this far better than "we will wait until hamas are not blood thirsty, until then, palestine and israel will trade explosives until the end of time"

i guess with all the discussion aside, this is the main point. im offering solutions, you are countering them and offering the same bloodshed in return


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I said it already. The 50% kill probability is a reality every time they launch a rocket. If I throw a stone in public, the probablity that it will hit a person is 50%. Its Math FFS. However Israel reduces that probablity to near Zero because they have stellar air defence. But dont tell me its alrigth that these guys fire rockets then, because Israel has air defence. Whether or not Israel has air defence isnt the issue. The issue are that the rockets are being fired into Israel.

Maths? do you even do math? statistics? probability? are all these words alien to you?
iron dome blocks 85% of incoming rockets.
if 1/2 rockets fired kill. then 50/100 rockets will kill.
85% are blocked. 15% make it through. 15/100 < 50/100
and that hasnt factored in that the iron dome system ignores rockets that land in completely unpopulated areas. i guess roughly 10% dont even get close. so 5/100 will hit a populated area. factor in bomb shelters, good healthcare for treatment, early warning, etc. 1/2 rockets killing is aiming a bit high, as in, you are WAY off. so please, leave the math to me and just provide a source on 1/2 rockets killing.

no really, final chance, give source or concede that you are wrong on this point


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There is no humanity in war. This is a fact. Humanity is also not a one way street.

exactly, when war starts, its alright to target civilians, to torture people, to just kill kittens for the fun of it. in fact, lets just start raping people in the hospital who cant fight back. war.
there is humanity in war. soldiers are human. civilians are human. just because there is war doesnt mean humanity has ended. it means two geopolitical groups are going at each other.

here is some wisdom:
Only a sith deals in absolutes.


Quote:
Because of the history. I dont refuse to do anything. Its the Palestinians. You are completely absolving them of any responsibility and putting the onus on Israel. It doesnt work that way. The responsibility solely and completely lies with the Palestinians. Put down your arms, and then recognize Israel, get to the table to talk. Israel even tried the Oslo Accords and other treaties, none of them work. Why? Palestininans dont approve of them. So its all easier said than done when you want propaganda. But it wont work. An idea might be good. But it also has to be practical.


and at what part is waiting on hamas going to end the fighting? im being realistic here. hamas is a bit too far on the deep end, PLO has a better chance so effort has to be channeled through to them, the rest of this post has already been posted above. below, hamas is changing, they are forced to change. either they get absorbed or cant change and will break down.
as for the oslo accords, a significant portion of israel's parliament rejected it. moreso than supporters of fatah in the gaza elections. 50/119 rejected the accords. couple this with
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_th ... s_massacre
and the ever expanding israeli settlements
palestine alone is not responsible for the breakdown of the oslo accord.


Quote:
Yeah doenst matter if its manufactured. But you cannot compare both teh same way. One is defending and trying to control the situation. The other is the aggressor. You cant compare both wars, they are not the same.

but the way im comparing the is. force gets met with retaliatory force. that is natural human reaction. palestinian civilians dont care who is defending, they see a couple thousand CHILDREN dead.
how can i not compare this with iraq? both have high civilian casualties. both have foreign country incursions. motive aside, they are similar, in that they are war. heck, its still US money funding it too. 4 mil aid a day for israel. or with afghanistan where a technologically superior army is hunting a terrorist organisation which has the side effect of many civilians displaced and dead.


Quote:
Cant ignore the charter. Ask them to change it then. If they dont, it is their manifesto. Period. Whether or not they call for an end to Israel. That is a rhetoric. The whole point of their fight. It doesnt have to be repeated. Its old story. Hamas also killed the Fatah. It was civil war. Its also a fact.

let me get this straight. i provide source for the leader of hamas in 2010 saying that the charter is irrelevant. you completely ignore and continue saying that hamas lives by the charter, despite the leader denouncing it?
hamas fought with fatah for a variety of reasons. i dont see how fighting to end corruption in the palestinian government somehow supports your point. my point in this matter is that hamas 1988 is different to hamas 2012. to not accept this is stupid to say the least. they have not adopted or used their charter since 2006.


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but cannot be changed for internal reasons

Quote:
There you go. What internal reasons? The reasons that the hamas believes in. Annihilate Israel. Unless they make it official that argument wont stand.Also rocket attacks didnt stop during the ceasefire. It increased to dangerous levels. Hence the Gaza War.

i have a question for you, did you read that source? it specifically condemns people who base hamas on their 1988 charter rather than their more recent statements. this is one or two sentences after the quoted part. you are all guns, no ammo.

Quote:
Quote:
hamas is forcing and subjugating the entire populace from a minority position despite being in power

They could very well be. They are terrorists. They could be doing it just like the LTTE in Sri Lanka, where the LTTE used to terrorize not just Sri Lankans but also the Tamils they said they were fighting for.

yes, people vote anonymously for the people who are subjugating them. makes perfect sense. are you high?

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:43 am 
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Quote:
those blockades shouldnt be lifted, but they should be slackened. that iranian aid which a lot of palestine relies upon is influencing palestine, a good deal for all would be to encourage palestinian economic independance.


Slackened? How do you expect to slacken something, when Arms and ammunition are smuggled, suicide bombers and insurgents escape etC? You need stringent methods. Stringent security = less freedom. Slackened security = more freedom,hence more danger to Israel. Palestinian economic independence. Now thats what you call pulling facts out of thin air :lol: What independence? They are underdeveloped. They need help, but currently we cant help with terrorism in reign, foreign aid to

Quote:
opening schools. is it TERRORISM? fox news reports.
defending against a hostile incursion by enemy forces. YOU BET YOUR *** ITS TERRORISM.

this is why my definition makes sense, and when thoroughly examined, yours is ridiculous. also mine is the official definition, so i guess i get some credence there.


Opening schools is not terrorism. Am sure Israel isnt against schools.Defending against hostile incursion? LOL. Its Israel defending hostile incursion. The Hamas ARE the hostile forces here.So how is it not terrorism to not defend,but throw rockets into civilian areas TARGETING civilians specifically? How is it not terrorism, to not have a legitimate army, to indulge in terrorist activities and then kidnap a soldier? The organization taht kidnapped the soldier is a terror group. Therefore their military activities are ALL terrorist activities and needs to be put down.

Quote:
and yet, this is exactly what a UN official has stated. quite contrary to what you are stating.


What did he state? The UN speaks out of its ass. I wont give that excuse of an organization ANY credibility. That organizatoin is dysfunctional and impotent. You want proof? Just look around the world and see whats happening. Nothing is in the UN's control. The UN is a failed concept.

Quote:
no, im waiting on supporting evidence that 1/2 rockets fired, kill. good for patching that up and stating that you arent an official.


Its funny how you ignore my explanation that the 1/2 figure is simple Math. When I fire a rocket at a civilian population, if you have read probablity and statistics in high school, you would know, that it has 0.5/1 chances of hitting its intended target, and 0.5/1 chances of not hitting its target. It doesnt necessarily mean that half the rockets fired, kill. Actually a very minor number of rockets kill or even injure people. So? What are you getting at? Whether or not those rockets ACTUALLY kill does not matter one bit. The very fact that they are fired is what matters. Those rockets would kill much more than they do now, if not for Israels air defence.

Quote:
irrelevant. the organisation is necessary though to facilitate discussions.


Yeah, they facilitate impotence and dysfunction alright.

Quote:
what i mean is you dismissing my evidence on the basis of "I DONT LIKE THOSE GUYS, ERGO, EVERYTHING WRONG". that unfair dismissal of my valid claims is a bit disappointing.


I am dismissing your evidence, because the UN is short sighted. The UN fact finding mission itself changed its stance. That shows that their claims at any point in time, is derived out of limited info. While this is very much a possibility I wouldnt use it as hard evidence against ISrael.

Quote:
Im putting the onus on israel because israel can fix this mess. you, yourself stated that hamas is unwilling and then say that we have to wait for hamas to fix this mess. they are unwilling yet you are hoping that magic happens and they are willing.
are you being serious or just trolling?
israel has to compromise if peace is wanted. im expecting israel to be the better nation here, rather than resort to petty hate and squabble, i am putting the onus on the better country to be better. is that too much to ask for? because thats the message im getting from you. that israel is not the better country, that israel has to lower its standards to par with the countries around it.
i take israel into the equation by attempting to find a peace solution in this discussion as opposed to your self-defeatist attitude of "the continued civilian deaths on both sides is unresolvable and must be accepted" what part of the eventual dismantling of hamas is not good for israel? isnt this far better than "we will wait until hamas are not blood thirsty, until then, palestine and israel will trade explosives until the end of time"


That is because you are being naive, and am being practical, so you call me boneheaded for saying there is no solution. Why should Israel compromise? Are you crazy? Its the Palestinians that have to compromise. You have to understand that beyond this problem, there is also politics involved. If everything boiled down to idealism, then one could argue that Israel is not being the better country. But in war, in conflict there is no idealism. Like I said Israel cannot afford to compromise on any level. And its not like they are facing the brunt of the issue, the palestinians are the ones suffering. They need to be the ones compromising. The Hamas wont change its stance. But they have to be forced, coerced to change their stance. They have to understand that there is no way in hell they can move Israel. And yes, for them understanding doesnt come through introspection, it comes when they get their asses whooped. This is the same with terrorists everywhere. You dont get this, because you dont know cross border terrorism. India's Kashmir issue has been raging on for 65 years, more than 50,000 people dead. The Terrorists, heck Pakistan couldnt move India. Yet they continue. In this case do you expect India to be the better country and give them peace? No, not at all. We will be the ones that will demand compromise. Thats how it works. So this being the better country or person, that wont work AT ALL. Its an impractical solution.

i
Quote:
ron dome blocks 85% of incoming rockets.
if 1/2 rockets fired kill. then 50/100 rockets will kill.
85% are blocked. 15% make it through. 15/100 < 50/100
and that hasnt factored in that the iron dome system ignores rockets that land in completely unpopulated areas. i guess roughly 10% dont even get close. so 5/100 will hit a populated area. factor in bomb shelters, good healthcare for treatment, early warning, etc. 1/2 rockets killing is aiming a bit high, as in, you are WAY off. so please, leave the math to me and just provide a source on 1/2 rockets killing.

no really, final chance, give source or concede that you are wrong on this point


Its because your math is wrong LOL. Cuz you misunderstood the question. I said the PROBABILITY that a rocket hits or misses, is 50%. Basic math. Like flipping a coin. If I flip a coin, what is the probablity that you will get a head? Its 50%. What the Iron dome system does is reduce this 50% probability to near zero, yes. So? Like I said, even if 0 rockets get through, it is still a threat. It costs Israel 50,000 USD per missile. 100 missile were fired a month or so ago. 30 of them dangerous I think. 29 were shot down. 1 hit a school, but thankfully no kids in there. Therefore, even if half a rocket is fired, I consider it a threat to life. Dont blame Israel when they go all guns blazing on the Palestinians then. They brought it on themselves.Its not Israel that initiated hostility or initiates hostile actions.

Quote:
exactly, when war starts, its alright to target civilians, to torture people, to just kill kittens for the fun of it. in fact, lets just start raping people in the hospital who cant fight back. war.
there is humanity in war. soldiers are human. civilians are human. just because there is war doesnt mean humanity has ended. it means two geopolitical groups are going at each other.


Sadly that isnt how it works. And Israel atleast drops leaflets, hacks into hamas radio and announces through radio that they are coming, plays psychological warfare by disinformation that will bring the hamas out, so they can hit them without killing civilians etc., There is only so much you can do.

Quote:
and at what part is waiting on hamas going to end the fighting? im being realistic here. hamas is a bit too far on the deep end, PLO has a better chance so effort has to be channeled through to them, the rest of this post has already been posted above. below, hamas is changing, they are forced to change. either they get absorbed or cant change and will break down.
as for the oslo accords, a significant portion of israel's parliament rejected it. moreso than supporters of fatah in the gaza elections. 50/119 rejected the accords. couple this with
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_th ... s_massacre
and the ever expanding israeli settlements
palestine alone is not responsible for the breakdown of the oslo accord.


That was a scumbag that did it. Even Israel denounced it and called him one. And he doesnt represent Israel in any way. He was a far right wing dude, that most Israelis would hate themselves. So dont put that on Israel. Yes the Knesset didnt vote for it. But Israel signed it. And the reason Israel lost faith is because the attacks against it intensified. This itself shows that any move from Israel, even through the PLO wont be welcomed.

Quote:
how can i not compare this with iraq?


You cant compare because in Iraq, its America thats the aggressor. In Palestine it is the Palestinians.

i
Quote:
provide source for the leader of hamas in 2010 saying that the charter is irrelevant. you completely ignore and continue saying that hamas lives by the charter, despite the leader denouncing it?
hamas fought with fatah for a variety of reasons. i dont see how fighting to end corruption in the palestinian government somehow supports your point. my point in this matter is that hamas 1988 is different to hamas 2012. to not accept this is stupid to say the least. they have not adopted or used their charter since 2006.


What the leader SAYS does not matter at all. Then why havent they recognized Israel as a legitimate state yet? A terrorist mouthing off nonsense doesnt mean anything. Actions show otherwise. Even as recent as a month ago.

Quote:
i have a question for you, did you read that source? it specifically condemns people who base hamas on their 1988 charter rather than their more recent statements. this is one or two sentences after the quoted part. you are all guns, no ammo.


Bro, he can condemn it. HE can say anything he wants. It has ZERO credibility. Unless and until, the Hamas says and puts out an official statement saying "We accept Israel as a legitimate state and will stop all hostile actions, and are willing to give power to the PLO to negotiate, and are gonna disband" AND backs it up with their actions by stopping any and all hostile actions toward Israel, Ill simply tear that piece of paper that quotes what the Hamas leader said and throw it in the garbage. It means nothing.

Quote:
yes, people vote anonymously for the people who are subjugating them. makes perfect sense. are you high?


There are ways in which you subjugate people without force. Through idealogy is what I mean. Same way the LTTE did. Or through fear. What choice do they have anyway? This is why I said Palestinian = Hamas. Since evne though there might be a minority that is against Hamas, the majority support them. Talk to any Arab, and he will support hte Hamas and call them freedom fighters. To say otherwise is ridiculous.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:23 pm 
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mfreak wrote:
Slackened? How do you expect to slacken something, when Arms and ammunition are smuggled, suicide bombers and insurgents escape etC? You need stringent methods. Stringent security = less freedom. Slackened security = more freedom,hence more danger to Israel. Palestinian economic independence. Now thats what you call pulling facts out of thin air :lol: What independence? They are underdeveloped. They need help, but currently we cant help with terrorism in reign, foreign aid to

how about this.
stringent = less commerce = more poverty = more desperation = more terrorism
slackened = ... = less terrorism

like i said, feel free with the military checks, etc. most arms are smuggled through the tunnel systems meaning these blockades just perpetuate poverty.
you forget that you are creating an environment that is openly supporting terrorism. a system that enables israel to collect billions in aid from usa. if you actually read the link i provided earlier, 1 billion dollars less of reliance on foreign aid PER YEAR. im not going to bother linking it again, dont ask "what independence" those blockades were directly deemed to be stunting palestinian economies.


Quote:
Opening schools is not terrorism. Am sure Israel isnt against schools.Defending against hostile incursion? LOL. Its Israel defending hostile incursion. The Hamas ARE the hostile forces here. So how is it not terrorism to not defend,but throw rockets into civilian areas TARGETING civilians specifically? How is it not terrorism, to not have a legitimate army, to indulge in terrorist activities and then kidnap a soldier? The organization taht kidnapped the soldier is a terror group. Therefore their military activities are ALL terrorist activities and needs to be put down.

Quote:
Everything they do is a terrorist action.

Quote:
Opening schools is not terrorism.

only a sith deals in absolutes.
lets say there is a palestinian, he is a fatah supporter, dislikes the hamas and their tactics, then boom, incursion.
his family is dead, his home has become collateral. if he picks up a gun against israeli soldiers blowing up his neighbourhood against hamas, another group he doesnt like. is that terrorism? your equivocation that palestine = hamas and hamas = terrorism means yes. lets say his daughter is still alive, is shooting people shooting up his neighbourhood terrorism? its just a human reacting to a perceived threat. what if he was a hamas supporter, but not a hamas fighter, does that make him a terrorist? im pointing out why your definition of terrorism is blatantly wrong and incorrect. i never said hamas wasnt terrorists, those rocket attacks are clearly terrorist attacks. heck, it fits under my definition fine. the use of violence against civilians to inspire fear (terror) for political/ideological reasons by a non state entity. your definition is just wrong.



Quote:
What did he state? The UN speaks out of its ass. I wont give that excuse of an organization ANY credibility. That organizatoin is dysfunctional and impotent. You want proof? Just look around the world and see whats happening. Nothing is in the UN's control. The UN is a failed concept.

WHAT DID HE STATE? I DONT KNOW. MAYBE, JUST IMAGINE, WHAT IF i had posted the link of what was stated? maybe if you read the sources i provide you wont come off so ignorant and obtuse.

UNICEF, WHO and that other one. WFP. those three alone save millions of lives every year. but this discussion isnt about the proficiency of the UN. its about the words stated by the UN official that israel was using bureaucracy to block much needed aid for palestine. that statement isnt dismissed because you dont like the UN, it will be dismissed if you come with a valid reason the statement is invalid.


Quote:
Its funny how you ignore my explanation that the 1/2 figure is simple Math. When I fire a rocket at a civilian population, if you have read probablity and statistics in high school, you would know, that it has 0.5/1 chances of hitting its intended target, and 0.5/1 chances of not hitting its target. It doesnt necessarily mean that half the rockets fired, kill. Actually a very minor number of rockets kill or even injure people. So? What are you getting at? Whether or not those rockets ACTUALLY kill does not matter one bit. The very fact that they are fired is what matters. Those rockets would kill much more than they do now, if not for Israels air defence.

how old are you? 11? 12? 13 ?14 cant be more than 14. you dont know how basic probability works. just because there are two options does not make both options equal in probability like a coin. moreover:
"It doesnt necessarily mean that half the rockets fired, kill" -> this was exactly what you were stating. i didnt ignore your reasoning, i explained carefully as one would explain to a child with learning difficulties how probability works. you will find that entire explanation in the post right before this one. 0.85 blocked = 0.15 possible to hit.


Quote:
Yeah, they facilitate impotence and dysfunction alright.

irrelevant.

Quote:
I am dismissing your evidence, because the UN is short sighted. The UN fact finding mission itself changed its stance. That shows that their claims at any point in time, is derived out of limited info. While this is very much a possibility I wouldnt use it as hard evidence against ISrael.

i can guarantee you, that the UN has better resources and information than you do, does that mean automatically all your claims are dismissed since your limited info is even less than that of the UN? i guess that does it, all your statements are hereby dismissed because you dont have a fact finding mission and you have limited info. or alternatively, you can give proper, reasonable reasons for dismissing the claim as opposed to the tiring "i dont like UN, therefore everything they say is wrong"

Quote:
That is because you are being naive, and am being practical, so you call me boneheaded for saying there is no solution. Why should Israel compromise? Are you crazy? Its the Palestinians that have to compromise. You have to understand that beyond this problem, there is also politics involved. If everything boiled down to idealism, then one could argue that Israel is not being the better country. But in war, in conflict there is no idealism. Like I said Israel cannot afford to compromise on any level. And its not like they are facing the brunt of the issue, the palestinians are the ones suffering. They need to be the ones compromising. The Hamas wont change its stance. But they have to be forced, coerced to change their stance. They have to understand that there is no way in hell they can move Israel.

so lets compare solutions. mine is a viable way of opening pathways for talks and peace. yours is to perpetuate and continue the ongoing cycle of violence. you, yourself stated that hamas is too extreme to just accept israel. why must you wait on them like a lap dog? israel can afford to compromise, they have the resources to compromise, they have the position to compromise and they have the bargaining chips to compromise. its a practical solution as its possible to have results. the alternative is far worse. it will result in far more israeli and palestinian lives lost and will continue the violence. right now, the only way to resolve any issue, regardless how petty the squabble is with explosives, surely even you can see this is not a solution. this is a problem. you dont offer a solution, you offer to continue the problem because the alternative is too difficult

Quote:
Its because your math is wrong LOL. Cuz you misunderstood the question. I said the PROBABILITY that a rocket hits or misses, is 50%. Basic math. Like flipping a coin. If I flip a coin, what is the probablity that you will get a head? Its 50%. What the Iron dome system does is reduce this 50% probability to near zero, yes. So? Like I said, even if 0 rockets get through, it is still a threat. It costs Israel 50,000 USD per missile. 100 missile were fired a month or so ago. 30 of them dangerous I think. 29 were shot down. 1 hit a school, but thankfully no kids in there. Therefore, even if half a rocket is fired, I consider it a threat to life. Dont blame Israel when they go all guns blazing on the Palestinians then. They brought it on themselves.Its not Israel that initiated hostility or initiates hostile actions.

you said that 1/2 rockets kill. i am still waiting on the source, go, dig through the internet, boy. give support for your claim. just because there are two outcomes does not mean both outcomes are equal. firing a rocket does not mean there is a 50/50 chance of a hit. lets take a plane flight. the two options are the plane flies safely and lands at the designated airport, the other option is that it crashes and burns. it isnt 50/50. do you suffer from mental deficiencies? trisomy 21? because this is getting painful to type. you are struggling to understand a basic principle of probability and unless you provide a source AND accept your failure, im going to take you less and less seriously. i dont know where you go to school, but they have messed up somewhere.

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Sadly that isnt how it works. And Israel atleast drops leaflets, hacks into hamas radio and announces through radio that they are coming, plays psychological warfare by disinformation that will bring the hamas out, so they can hit them without killing civilians etc., There is only so much you can do.

that there is humanity, you just said there is no humanity in war? is israel doing this wrong? should they be raping jailed palestinians then publically torturing and killing them to send a strong deterrent? i think you should inform them that they should be torturing humans since there is no humanity in war.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... hment.html
something nice and recent, israel bringing back the unpopular collective punishment fun.
the women and children will be homeless when their home is razed, creating ideal terrorism conditions are we?
i suggest you read that link above and then read the link below. just a little insight
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sippenhaft

you know what, with all these prisoners, israel should forgo humanity and put them to use, lets get some labour camps up and running. some good ol' forced hard labour camps. but with all these prisoners and all these camps, how are we going to transport the people around? i know, let us use trains and cattle cars instead of normal passenger cars so its more economical. that way we can get all these terrorists and their families to the camps by trains... hmmm that seems familiar, where have i heard that from before? could it be a darker time in human history where humanity was sacrificed during war?


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That was a scumbag that did it. Even Israel denounced it and called him one. And he doesnt represent Israel in any way. He was a far right wing dude, that most Israelis would hate themselves. So dont put that on Israel. Yes the Knesset didnt vote for it. But Israel signed it. And the reason Israel lost faith is because the attacks against it intensified. This itself shows that any move from Israel, even through the PLO wont be welcomed.

mfreak wrote:
*GASP* They (human rights groups) condemned it!! That makes everything okay!!

:)
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really now? really? and israeli settler fires onto an un armed mosque. he is considered a martyr by the far right and his grave is a pilgrimage site for those crazy nutters. that incident and the resulting rockets fired in spite was the main reason for the oslo accord breaking down. in apparent peace, an israeli guns down plenty of innocent civilians, how does that not shatter the peace? those oslo accords were fragile. hardliners from both sides didnt accept it. are you just angry because it wasnt a palestinian who broke the peace but rather an israeli? pre-1967 lines i think is where its at, israeli settlements have to drop, palestine has to accept certain places are to be left uncontested.

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You cant compare because in Iraq, its America thats the aggressor. In Palestine it is the Palestinians.

American funding a technologically superior force into a war against terrorists which results in many civilians dead. how is that not comparable? this has gone on for long enough it doesnt matter who started it, there is nothing but bad blood between the factions. im drawing comparisons with iraq and afghanistan wherein force on terrorist home turf doesnt destroy them, it makes them more resilient and capable, it results in a long drawn out conflict which results in plenty of bloodshed. the terrorists are able to accrue support and man power easily because the aggressors are seen by the local populace to be the foreigners, the non arabs if you will. how is that not comparable?

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What the leader SAYS does not matter at all. Then why havent they recognized Israel as a legitimate state yet? A terrorist mouthing off nonsense doesnt mean anything. Actions show otherwise. Even as recent as a month ago.

hamas are having talks with EU countries, there has been dialogue, 2006 elections, hamas did not call out for israel to not be accepted, it wasnt their political line with which the palestinians supported them on, etc. this hamas is significantly different from 1988 hamas, the primary goals and objectives differ. you think hamas hasnt changed at all in almost 3 decades? that they are EXACTLY the same? yes there is still violence between palestine and israel. hamas how given up on 23m of iranian funding because they refused to support syria's position in the uprising, instead condemning syria.

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Bro, he can condemn it. HE can say anything he wants. It has ZERO credibility. Unless and until, the Hamas says and puts out an official statement saying "We accept Israel as a legitimate state and will stop all hostile actions, and are willing to give power to the PLO to negotiate, and are gonna disband" AND backs it up with their actions by stopping any and all hostile actions toward Israel, Ill simply tear that piece of paper that quotes what the Hamas leader said and throw it in the garbage. It means nothing.

question remains, DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT READ SOURCE?
as for you reply, what about settlements? you know those illegal ones, what about the thousands of palestinians in israeli jails, many are not charged and unlikely to face a fair trial, how about the blockades ensuring and perpetuating poverty in palestine, what about the embargo?
you accused me before of not understanding israel's position, but your position is considerably much more hard line, you refuse to acknowledge any palestinian suffering or wrongs committed by israel.



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There are ways in which you subjugate people without force. Through idealogy is what I mean. Same way the LTTE did. Or through fear. What choice do they have anyway? This is why I said Palestinian = Hamas. Since evne though there might be a minority that is against Hamas, the majority support them. Talk to any Arab, and he will support hte Hamas and call them freedom fighters. To say otherwise is ridiculous.

But these elections clearly demonstrate that Palestine=/=Hamas and hamas does not equal palestine? instead you have some delusional belief that hamas are somehow mind controlling palestine with magic voodoo powers. they clearly have plenty of choices since less than half voted for hamas.

this ridiculous notion that hamas HAS to be evil in all accounts is a bit depressing of you. i bet those schools teaching hebrew in palestine are totally sacrificial altars to satan.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Quote:
how about this.
stringent = less commerce = more poverty = more desperation = more terrorism
slackened = ... = less terrorism

like i said, feel free with the military checks, etc. most arms are smuggled through the tunnel systems meaning these blockades just perpetuate poverty.
you forget that you are creating an environment that is openly supporting terrorism. a system that enables israel to collect billions in aid from usa. if you actually read the link i provided earlier, 1 billion dollars less of reliance on foreign aid PER YEAR. im not going to bother linking it again, dont ask "what independence" those blockades were directly deemed to be stunting palestinian economies.


Slackened =/= less terrorism.
Slackened = more terrorism,persisting poverty. All these figures dont mean anything. What will actually happen is terrorists will get a free reign, and they will never let the economy improve.You cannot possibly expect Israel to open its doors to terrorism or even take that risk.

l
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ets say there is a palestinian, he is a fatah supporter, dislikes the hamas and their tactics, then boom, incursion.
his family is dead, his home has become collateral. if he picks up a gun against israeli soldiers blowing up his neighbourhood against hamas, another group he doesnt like. is that terrorism? your equivocation that palestine = hamas and hamas = terrorism means yes. lets say his daughter is still alive, is shooting people shooting up his neighbourhood terrorism? its just a human reacting to a perceived threat. what if he was a hamas supporter, but not a hamas fighter, does that make him a terrorist? im pointing out why your definition of terrorism is blatantly wrong and incorrect. i never said hamas wasnt terrorists, those rocket attacks are clearly terrorist attacks. heck, it fits under my definition fine. the use of violence against civilians to inspire fear (terror) for political/ideological reasons by a non state entity. your definition is just wrong.


My definition is right. A non state entity, targeting civilians, kidnapping soldiers has absolutely no legality. It IS a terrorist attack. If any guy supports the hamas, and takes up arms for it, then he is a terrorist.Whether his home was blown up, or whether he perceives Israel as an attacker or not.If a man WHATEVER be his situation if he shoots in the direction of ISrael, and wears the hamas badge, then whatever he does is a terrorist activity. Any practical person would accept this definition as logical and correct. Lets say you were an Israeli, and if a Palestinian picks up a gun and shoots at you, perceiving you to be a threat, and lets say it hits your daughter, and she dies. Would you pass that off as a "perceived threat causing violence" or would you call it terrorism?

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UN official that israel was using bureaucracy to block much needed aid for palestine. that statement isnt dismissed because you dont like the UN, it will be dismissed if you come with a valid reason the statement is invalid.


I will dismiss it. The UN doesnt look at the situation from the ground and even if they do, they dont understand complexities. Ask them to first come up with answers to the complicated situation ISrael faces and then we will talk about taking this man's statement seriously. Making a blunt statement that ISrael is doing this and that, isnt valid. You have to always give reasons and analyze both sides of the coin. The moment an argument fails to do that, it is invalid.

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how old are you? 11? 12? 13 ?14 cant be more than 14. you dont know how basic probability works. just because there are two options does not make both options equal in probability like a coin. moreover:
"It doesnt necessarily mean that half the rockets fired, kill" -> this was exactly what you were stating. i didnt ignore your reasoning, i explained carefully as one would explain to a child with learning difficulties how probability works. you will find that entire explanation in the post right before this one. 0.85 blocked = 0.15 possible to hit.


I am 30. Much older than you I bet. Basic probablity works the way I said. If you throw a stone at a person, what is the probablity that the stone will hit him? Its 50%. As simple as that. Your calculation that 0.15 possibilty is besides the point. Infact the last time around only 1 out of 100 hit. Thats way below 15%. But that is not the point. The reason only 1 hit is because Israel reduces that 50% hit probablity to near zero through the use of their defence systems. But that doesnt matter. The fact that 100 missiles were fired is what matters,

Quote:
you said that 1/2 rockets kill. i am still waiting on the source


Now dont piss me off. I have told you repeatedly, that the 1/2 was probablity. I didnt say 100 rockets were fired, 50 hit civilians and killed them. Read back my original post where I stated that and unless you are dyslexic you will understand I was talking about PROBABILITY not actual figures. FFS.

Quote:
just because there are two outcomes does not mean both outcomes are equal. firing a rocket does not mean there is a 50/50 chance of a hit. lets take a plane flight. the two options are the plane flies safely and lands at the designated airport, the other option is that it crashes and burns. it isnt 50/50. do you suffer from mental deficiencies? trisomy 21? because this is getting painful to type. you are struggling to understand a basic principle of probability and unless you provide a source AND accept your failure, im going to take you less and less seriously. i dont know where you go to school, but they have messed up somewhere.


If there are two outcomes, then it means each outcome has a 50% probablity of occuring. PERIOD. Lets take a missile flight. Let me explain to you like I would to a child with special needs:

a) The missile flies and hits its designated target
b) THe missile either fails midair, or veers off its designated path and falls in no mans land

Those are TWO possible outcomes. The probability P(H) (H = hits the target) = Probablity of missile hitting/Possible outcomes = 1/2 = 50%. Got it? If not Ill link you to some math lessons.

Quote:
that there is humanity, you just said there is no humanity in war? is israel doing this wrong? should they be raping jailed palestinians then publically torturing and killing them to send a strong deterrent? i think you should inform them that they should be torturing humans since there is no humanity in war.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... hment.html
something nice and recent, israel bringing back the unpopular collective punishment fun.
the women and children will be homeless when their home is razed, creating ideal terrorism conditions are we?
i suggest you read that link above and then read the link below. just a little insight
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sippenhaft


If I was the guy whose family the palestinian killed, no I wont care that I demolish their house, whether his kids die on the streets or whatever. We have a saying - "You pull out a thorn in your leg, with a thorn". If I had my kids killed, I wouldnt be making recommendations. I would have already demolished his house, and put his family through misery. I wouldnt care one bit. This is why there is no humanity in war. Israel STILL tries to do as much as it can. You have to appreciate it, not condemn it. You are just too naive. What is your answer to that family that lost the infant and the 4 yr old kid? You are worried about the killers family, to me the family that ACTUALLY lost its loved ones matters more.

Secondly equating Israel to Nazi Germany is an age old argument. Been done several times over. It means nothing. Brutality has to be met with brutality. Simple as that. No mercy should be shown. You dont understand this view point because you dont understand cross border terrorism.

Quote:
that incident and the resulting rockets fired in spite was the main reason for the oslo accord breaking down.


That incident was the MAIN reason the oslo accords broke down? It was the rockets that made Israel go back.

Quote:
pre-1967 lines i think is where its at, israeli settlements have to drop, palestine has to accept certain places are to be left uncontested.


The pre 1967 lines were not international borders. It was the armistice line. The Arabs broke it. Therefore Israel does not have to give up anything legally. If they do, then yes the Palestinians have to compromise, but they just wont.

I am not gonna get into this comparisons of this war with teh one in Iraq and Afghanistan. Its not relevant and secondly, they are different. Ive explained before.

Quote:
this hamas is significantly different from 1988 hamas,


Yeah they have to be. They got their asses whooped multiple times. The hamas has not changed, it is just that they have become less violent than before. This is how it works with them. Beat the *CENSORED* out of them, and then they will be subdued for a while. Then again an uprising, another attack. Ridculous? Yes it is. But thats reality for ya.

Quote:
question remains, DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT READ SOURCE?
as for you reply, what about settlements? you know those illegal ones, what about the thousands of palestinians in israeli jails, many are not charged and unlikely to face a fair trial, how about the blockades ensuring and perpetuating poverty in palestine, what about the embargo?
you accused me before of not understanding israel's position, but your position is considerably much more hard line, you refuse to acknowledge any palestinian suffering or wrongs committed by israel.


I read it. A little bit. Didnt have the time to go through everything. Settlements are built on Israeli acquired land through the use of force for the purposes of DEFENCE. Until the conflict is resolved it is Israel's land. They can build settlements. Blockades and embargoes are necessary for Israel's safety. Weve been through this before. While stating that blockades have ot be removed you havent given any solution to how you would still maintain security. I believe Israel, because they are in the midst of it. You are simply suggesting something that you yourself arent sure if it will work.

I acknowledge the fact that the palestinians suffer. I acknowledge that Israel is very brutal in its methods. But this is what am trying to explain to you, That is why I drew a parallel between Kashmir and Palestine. India adopts the same methods to curb terrorism. Shoot at sight to kill on suspicion, randomly ransacking homes and demolishing homes in the middle of the night, reign through terror. But this is what ensures my safety. When push comes to shove, its ones survival that matters. Not the method in which it is achieved.

You still dont understand the root of the issue. The Palestinian situation is just the tip of the iceberg. The larger issue is the Arab-Israeli conflict. It has cultural, hisotrical, religious and ethnicity related issues. The settlements, walls, embargo, blockades, prisoners of war etc are just side effects of this conflict. Unless you fix the foundation of a building, the building is still gonnna collapse. Unless you actually offer a solution for the issue taking all of these complications into consideration, your liberal view point wont work.

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