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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:11 pm 
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mfreak wrote:
Yeah so info is sketchy, because most of the funding comes from countries like Iran. Added to that, is the fact that they are using it against Israel.

still doesnt change the fact that the majority of their expenditure is not for military means.

mfreak wrote:
Bulldozing houses is something even a lot of Israelis dont agree with. Yes the land was taken in defence and as long as its disputed territory, the land is Israels. But bulldozing houses and throwing these guys on the road is inhuman. I already said this. But these are really not the reasons for the conflict, these are just the long term effects of it.

or its merely fuel for the fire. what better reason for not wanting israel to live there than israel demonstrating they dont want you to live there? it makes hamas rhetoric and propaganda all the more convincing.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:28 pm 
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still doesnt change the fact that the majority of their expenditure is not for military means.


That doesnt mean anything anyway. So some of it is being used for terrorism, and thats what matters.

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or its merely fuel for the fire. what better reason for not wanting israel to live there than israel demonstrating they dont want you to live there? it makes hamas rhetoric and propaganda all the more convincing.


It adds fuel to the fire yes. But stopping it, is still not gonna solve the issue as the core problems will still exist.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:12 am 
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mfreak wrote:
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still doesnt change the fact that the majority of their expenditure is not for military means.


That doesnt mean anything anyway. So some of it is being used for terrorism, and thats what matters.

and some of israeli's expenditure has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of children. totally irrelevant? you just side tracked then ignored

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or its merely fuel for the fire. what better reason for not wanting israel to live there than israel demonstrating they dont want you to live there? it makes hamas rhetoric and propaganda all the more convincing.


It adds fuel to the fire yes. But stopping it, is still not gonna solve the issue as the core problems will still exist.

awesome, you are identifying problems, do you have any solutions? please dont suggest hardline military action, because that wont work

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:37 am 
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and some of israeli's expenditure has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of children. totally irrelevant? you just side tracked then ignored


Israeli military expenditure is used for its defence. Its not like Israel is investing in killing Palestinians on a day to day basis. But Palestine most definitely is. They call themselves freedom fighters and bomb school buses, and send suicide bombers to blow themselves up in malls and restaurants. So what money is used for is totally different. The civilian loss of life through Israeli military action is just collateral damage. If that shouldnt happen then the Hamas should stop its military campaign against Israel. Trying to win a war against a country like Israel is silly.

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awesome, you are identifying problems, do you have any solutions? please dont suggest hardline military action, because that wont work


The first solution, or rather the first step to a solution will be Hamas recognition of Israel as a legitimate state. As long as they dont do that, the military action has to continue, atleast in retaliatory form. When someone is saying you dont deserve to live, or have to be wiped off from the face of the earth you cant really lend them a helping hand. They'll just cut it off.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:40 am 
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mfreak wrote:
Israeli military expenditure is used for its defence. Its not like Israel is investing in killing Palestinians on a day to day basis.

deaths/days (i would note that its likely 4000+ palestinians have been killed in the past 10 years due to the conflict (upper bound of ~5500)
that is a death a day.


But Palestine most definitely is. They call themselves freedom fighters and bomb school buses, and send suicide bombers to blow themselves up in malls and restaurants. So what money is used for is totally different. The civilian loss of life through Israeli military action is just collateral damage. If that shouldnt happen then the Hamas should stop its military campaign against Israel. Trying to win a war against a country like Israel is silly.

and yet they manage to garner support. i wonder why is that. clearly, many of the palestinians are somehow aligned more closely to the hamas than they are to israel. how, how can this be? both sides have violated human rights and hamas are clearly worse, but the palestinians dont necessarily see it in that light. neither does the israel military brass in accepting they violate human rights

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awesome, you are identifying problems, do you have any solutions? please dont suggest hardline military action, because that wont work

mfreak wrote:
The first solution, or rather the first step to a solution will be Hamas recognition of Israel as a legitimate state. As long as they dont do that, the military action has to continue, atleast in retaliatory form. When someone is saying you dont deserve to live, or have to be wiped off from the face of the earth you cant really lend them a helping hand. They'll just cut it off.

alright, again, i remember pointing out how utterly ruinous it is to rely upon the crazies to be less crazy. surely you see that this waiting game isnt going to work. what if there were a developed nation involved in this struggle, one that isnt crazy, one that can actually do things without it exploding while yelling praises to allah? what if there was a side that has the might, the economy and the leverage to make the first steps as opposed to waiting on hamas. what if i told you that perhaps its israel and not hamas that has to be rigorously pro active since hamas are bat shiz crazy?

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:02 am 
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deaths/days (i would note that its likely 4000+ palestinians have been killed in the past 10 years due to the conflict (upper bound of ~5500)
that is a death a day.


The deaths/days is less for Israel because Israel has great air defence. Recently they inducted the Iron Dome system to shoot down incoming rockets. This system calculates the trajectory, uses GPS or whatever and finds out where the missile is headed. If it finds out the missile is gonna pose a threat, it shoots it down. Out of the 30 missiles that it attempted to shoot down, I think it shot down 29 of em. Israel also has permanent bomb shelters built in its most vulnerable areas. On the other hand, the Palestinians dont have air defence, or bomb shelters so their casualty rate is much more.


Quote:
and yet they manage to garner support. i wonder why is that. clearly, many of the palestinians are somehow aligned more closely to the hamas than they are to israel. how, how can this be? both sides have violated human rights and hamas are clearly worse, but the palestinians dont necessarily see it in that light. neither does the israel military brass in accepting they violate human rights


See thats the difference. Israel accepts violating human rights, because they are a stable, legitimate state. The Palestinians garner support primarily from Europe. Where Jew hatred is a historical phenomenon. If you see which countries are pro Israel only India, Us, Canada and China come close with some solid numbers. Everyone else hates Israel. And its not because of Palestine. Palestine is just an excuse.

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alright, again, i remember pointing out how utterly ruinous it is to rely upon the crazies to be less crazy. surely you see that this waiting game isnt going to work. what if there were a developed nation involved in this struggle, one that isnt crazy, one that can actually do things without it exploding while yelling praises to allah? what if there was a side that has the might, the economy and the leverage to make the first steps as opposed to waiting on hamas. what if i told you that perhaps its israel and not hamas that has to be rigorously pro active since hamas are bat shiz crazy?


See again you are arguing around the point that Israel has to take the first step. This is where you are wrong, because the Hamas DOES NOT WANT ISRAEL TO TAKE THE FIRST STEP. THEY DONT WANT ISRAEL THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Sorry for the caps, but hope that makes it clear. The ONLY solution according to the Hamas and their supporters is for Israel to NOT EXIST. Therefore Israel cant lend a hand or whatever. It wont be accepted. Infact they will be rewarded with another 200 rockets fired into Israel.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:25 am 
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The deaths/days is less for Israel because Israel has great air defence. Recently they inducted the Iron Dome system to shoot down incoming rockets. This system calculates the trajectory, uses GPS or whatever and finds out where the missile is headed. If it finds out the missile is gonna pose a threat, it shoots it down. Out of the 30 missiles that it attempted to shoot down, I think it shot down 29 of em. Israel also has permanent bomb shelters built in its most vulnerable areas. On the other hand, the Palestinians dont have air defence, or bomb shelters so their casualty rate is much more.

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mfreak wrote:
Israeli military expenditure is used for its defence. Its not like Israel is investing in killing Palestinians on a day to day basis.

Quote:
mrducky wrote:
deaths/days (i would note that its likely 4000+ palestinians have been killed in the past 10 years due to the conflict (upper bound of ~5500)
that is a death a day.


irrelevant. i was pointing out a death a day to you stating "its not like israel is investing in killing palestinians on a day to day basis". im not going to say israel is directly investing in the death of palestianians, im only pointing out the repercussions of current israeli actions.

mfreak wrote:
See thats the difference. Israel accepts violating human rights, because they are a stable, legitimate state. The Palestinians garner support primarily from Europe. Where Jew hatred is a historical phenomenon. If you see which countries are pro Israel only India, Us, Canada and China come close with some solid numbers. Everyone else hates Israel. And its not because of Palestine. Palestine is just an excuse.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... s-1.427184
when talking about support in palestine, i was referring to palestinian support of hamas. again, point you make is irrelevant and a non sequitir.

[quote="mfreak"See again you are arguing around the point that Israel has to take the first step. This is where you are wrong, because the Hamas DOES NOT WANT ISRAEL TO TAKE THE FIRST STEP. THEY DONT WANT ISRAEL THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Sorry for the caps, but hope that makes it clear. The ONLY solution according to the Hamas and their supporters is for Israel to NOT EXIST. Therefore Israel cant lend a hand or whatever. It wont be accepted. Infact they will be rewarded with another 200 rockets fired into Israel.[/quote]

WHO SAYS ISRAEL MUST MAKE PEACE WITH HAMAS? no one likes human shields, bomb palestine not with explosives but with propaganda, reach out a hand not to hamas, but to palestine. show the palestinians, even if they know its propaganda, its there, its making a clear point that hamas is firing rockets next to schools and israel cant retaliate. litter them with depictions of how they used human shields. let the people think twice, just once more then they currently do, about hamas. enact warfare but without bloodshed, the subversive kind, there are many avenues to doing it. all of them, israel can take.

its far better than the alternative. lets wait out hamas's outrage. unfortunately there is a cycle. THERE IS NO END. (there, caps for you too)
rocket attacks -> counter offensive -> dead palestinians -> more hamas -> rocket attacks -> counter offensive ->....

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:34 am 
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ask this question after another 1000 year. then my answer would be no. till the day men has greed in his heart , there is no solution to this issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:47 am 
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raxcave wrote:
ask this question after another 1000 year. then my answer would be no. till the day men has greed in his heart , there is no solution to this issue.

what is the question? the one that can be answered with "no"

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:35 am 
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irrelevant. i was pointing out a death a day to you stating "its not like israel is investing in killing palestinians on a day to day basis". im not going to say israel is directly investing in the death of palestianians, im only pointing out the repercussions of current israeli actions.


Its not irrelevant. You cannot compare them like that. One is defending. The other is investing in TARGETING civilians. Its their mission. Israels motive on the other hand is just to defend, and take out targets that threaten its survival. Israeli actions have no repercurssions as is. The repercurssions aka humanitarian crisis we see everyday are solely the fault of the Hamas. We cant blame Israel for trying to take out terrorists, and in the process killing civlians. Its collateral damage.

Quote:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... s-1.427184
when talking about support in palestine, i was referring to palestinian support of hamas. again, point you make is irrelevant and a non sequitir.


Human rights groups aka leftists, are primarily from the developed nations of Europe, North America. Jew Hatred or not, these groups are on an active campaign against Israel and its actions, while Israel is left without alternatives. While saying "Free Palestine", organizations like even the UN, dont answer questions about cross border terrorism. Heck the UN has special definitions for refugees in the Palestine area. So you cannot blame Israel for trying to limit the activities of human rights groups. Arms and Ammunition have been smuggled in the past in the form of "human rights activities" and Israel has to limit them. If they dont, then there will be more air raids, and more people dying cuz of it. So infact Israel is doing the most humanitarian thing possible, by denying these terrorists weapons that can be used agianst them, so they dont need to bomb Gaza in retaliation.

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WHO SAYS ISRAEL MUST MAKE PEACE WITH HAMAS? no one likes human shields, bomb palestine not with explosives but with propaganda, reach out a hand not to hamas, but to palestine. show the palestinians, even if they know its propaganda, its there, its making a clear point that hamas is firing rockets next to schools and israel cant retaliate. litter them with depictions of how they used human shields. let the people think twice, just once more then they currently do, about hamas. enact warfare but without bloodshed, the subversive kind, there are many avenues to doing it. all of them, israel can take.

its far better than the alternative. lets wait out hamas's outrage. unfortunately there is a cycle. THERE IS NO END. (there, caps for you too)
rocket attacks -> counter offensive -> dead palestinians -> more hamas -> rocket attacks -> counter offensive ->....


I understand your point. However, what am trying to say is that propaganda wont work. Do you think the Palestinians dont know that rockets are being fired? Do you think the Palestinians dont know that the Hamas sends suicide bombers into Israel? They DO know. They still support the Hamas, because of a common goal. That there should be NO Israel. Israel provides many types of humanitarian aid to the Palestinians. Electricity, Medical facilities etc. If these dont move people, throwing leaflets, and propagandizing something isnt gonna work. This is a struggle that has historical, cultural and religious implications. You cannot fight that with propaganda. The Hamas has its own propaganda. They make cartoons that advocate hatred for Jews and Israel etc., Propaganda is effective when you understand what the population wants, cuz its something like advertising or promoting a brand or a product. When you dont understand that, your propaganda is bound to fail. Plus something like this conflict that has such historical and religious attributes to it, cannot be fought with propaganda especially when Israel is looked upon as the big Satan.

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