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 Post subject: Re: What did Power's squads say to the Power's squads?!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:21 am 
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Its not as complicated as it seems. I am not aware of BD code, but all we are asking here is that your own units dont kill you. If 10 squads of yours are parked on an outpost, and you are returning to the outpost when you are say kicked, those returning squads should not fight YOUR troops stationed on the outpost.

If you are parked along with say 10 other alliance members squads, then the 10 returning and the 10 parked squads should fight the other 10 (now neutral). That is the most logical thing to do. Of course, this can be abused if you want to kill an alliance member (say you are angry someone kicked you), but I believe anything you code in can still be abused. People will always find a way.

Therefore, it has to be the most logical thing that should be implemented. Your own units that you spent resources for should never attack you. So what happens if your own squads returning to your colony, actually attack you? If you had your shield on, would you be shielded? Or will you instead just kill your units parked on your colony? That isn't logical.

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 Post subject: Re: What did Power's squads say to the Power's squads?!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:50 am 
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Exactly, this supprises me that it could happen...!

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 Post subject: Re: What did Power's squads say to the Power's squads?!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:57 am 
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@ mfreak

Your own units wont attack you on your own colony. Thats not how this works. Also, you are completely bypassing the scenario put forth by the devs.


The issue here is that colony A is in your alliance, and has an outpost which you have your squads parked on. This colony leaves or is booted from your alliance, which turns the OP where you have your squads parked into a neutral OP. Your squads will still defend until they are moved no matter what. Since the OP is no longer allied, any movement to that OP from that alliance will then be an attack. Any squads of yours docked on that outpost will still act in defense of that outpost, even if you are the one attacking it, until you move those squads off of that OP.

This will not happen on your colony because your colony is your asset and the mechanic of defending a neutral asset does not apply. However, if YOU are the one who is booted from the alliance, and that alliance has squads parked on your colony, they will act in defense of your colony until that allaince moves them off of your colony. Putting a shield up will still block their units, but once the shield goes down, they would be fighting your units, plus whatever units they had parked on your colony in defense.

I am not entirely confident you fully understood what is being discussed here.


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 Post subject: Re: What did Power's squads say to the Power's squads?!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:20 am 
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Alright so say your 10 squads are returning to a now neutral outpost (used to be owned by alliance mate) you were kicked for whatever reason from leader. Why would it be considered a valid working game mechanic when you go head to head against your OWN squads?

I understand completely that if you return to that outpost after being kicked you should fight the alliances squads. But what I can not grasp is that you say the devs can not fix this problem when you're fighting yourself. There are multiple ideas of changing it, and like others I do not know coding but you guys have changed neutral outposts in the past so how is this any different?

For example, why not make the returning squads heading towards the now neutral outpost fight the squads remaining on that outpost but null whichever squads you had sitting on it? Which this also includes if you send 1 eta out then recall to match the incoming as that is exploitable.

Make the squads sitting on that outpost float off on invisible outpost like they used to (old bug) where they wouldn't participate in any battles until sent to an owned or alliance owned outpost. They would still be on that outpost just floating off when zoomed out for whatever reason. Still occurs when squad is nuked with just 1 unit left it appears as a 0 unit squad floating off the side of an outpost.

Maybe it's me just being stubborn but I fail to see how the developers think that the current system is the best and most reasonable method of returning squads to a neutral outpost with your squads defending. Never should you be forced to fight your own squads especially if you've no way of avoiding it.


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 Post subject: Re: What did Power's squads say to the Power's squads?!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:27 am 
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"what if you have allied troops docked on target,
but you're attacking it and another alliance is attacking it as well?

what will those troops do? defend? join the attack?"

*****


I know this seems like a simple fix to an outpost or something not understanding coding, but this is not a simple OP fix, this is a battle engine issue. Things get complicated when you think about what should happen in the scenario mentioned above.

You are considering very simple scenarios here, but the devs are forseeing issues in more complex scenarios which will most certainly result in more bugs.
I put it forward to the devs from your more simple perspective. "Why not just make it so allied units cannot fight eachother?"

The problem arises when you consider more variables, such as the one mentioned above. And if they could come up with this within a few seconds of being presented with the issue, there are certainly more complex scenarios which will inevitably arise when the mechanic is put into mainstream circulation.

Also, to address your question of "why not just make them floating?". It is simple. Because it is too easily exploited. Armies should never be rendered un-attackable for any reason because there is no counter to this, and the squads would be free to sit and wait for backup indefinately. There is absolutely no strategic counter for this. I do not think I need to explain to you how entire rounds can be made or broken in just such a situation! Imagine the pinnacle of your planning to take out a critical part of the enemies army on a single outpost being completely negated simply by the alliance leader booting the owner of that OP at an opportune time, which removes your ability completely to touch that army at all!

The current mechanic, while being a pain in the butt, still offers the very possibility of a strategic counter by means of avoidance even if it is a major inconvenience. Pain in the butt or not, there is still a counter strategy to it, whereas there is NO counter for the opposite scenario.

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 Post subject: Re: What did Power's squads say to the Power's squads?!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:52 am 
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Seth wrote:

I personally think that no army should ever be able to be completely shielded from attack, as that negates ANY feasible strategy to counter it. A really critical scenario to demonstrate this would be:

-Your enemy alliance captured a gate near to your hive and has managed to defend almost long enough to gain control. Your alliance has managed to whittle the defending force down just enough so that you can muster several hundred units for a final assault (which will be pretty much all of the units you have in the area to adequately do the job). You know its all or nothing, as if you don't win the battle now, your forces will be too weak to sustain any more attacks at this time, but you know that you have exactly what you need to get it done. No more. You launch the attack and ETA 1, the alliance boots the owner of the outpost who also retreats his squads the same tick. You take the outpost without a fight, but hundreds of the enemy troops still remain there and there is nothing you can do about it. Now, not only do you have a sizable force there that you could have potentially defeated, but the enemy has infinite amount of time to bring in reinforcements for those forces and there is absolutely nothing you can do to harm the troops which are already on your doorstep.

And I personally think that no army should ever attack itself, but you're the boss. Anyway, I agree that it's a slimy and abusive tactic and I would be embarrassed to use it, but consider the flip side of your argument.

-Your enemy alliance captured a gate near to your hive and has managed to defend almost long enough to gain control. Your alliance has managed to whittle the defending force down just enough so that you can muster several hundred units for a final assault. You head to the neighboring outpost where you will mount your attack where your mates have already positioned their last several hundred units. Just as you are about to arrive, the traitor who owns the outpost leaves your alliance and you destroy your teammates and your enemy comes in and annihilates your entire alliance. What's more, it doesn't even need to be a traitor, in our case it was just a member who was inactive and deleted at that moment.

As for the dev's who ask:

"what if you have allied troops docked on target, but you're attacking it and another alliance is attacking it as well? what will those troops do? defend? join the attack?"

If I'm heading an outpost and my buddies are already there, I expect them to help me out of course. What kind of friends would they be if they didn't?

Frankly, I don't understand why if someone deletes and there are units on the outpost, the person with the most units there doesn't get control of the outpost automatically.

Ok, I've said my piece, evidently someone decided the abuse was more important than the unexpected accidents that seem to be happening and it's too hard to figure out, but you really should compensate this guy.


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 Post subject: Re: What did Power's squads say to the Power's squads?!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:41 am 
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Sorry. As I stated, we cannot compensate for something that all players face on equal terms.

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 Post subject: Re: What did Power's squads say to the Power's squads?!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:54 am 
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I understand the situation. Sorry about the colony thing though, I entirely forgot it was my colony my squads are returning to. lol.

Here are a few scenarios:

Scenario 1: Your squads are stationed on an allied outpost. Only yours are stationed there, and say 3 of your squads are returning. Currently both fight. This shouldn't be the case.

Scenario 2: Your squads are stationed on one of your own outposts along with your alliance mates. You get kicked. Your squads should not fight your incoming units, only the neutral squads.

Scenario 3: What the Dev people said - "what if you have allied troops docked on target,
but you're attacking it and another alliance is attacking it as well?

what will those troops do? defend? join the attack?"

What should ideally happen, is a battle the way it happens while a conquer gets attacked by 2 or more neutral members. They first fight the colony and then each other? So your incoming squads plus your squads stationed should act as one. Now the complication I see, is the status of the squads (one stationed on the outpost and one attacking), but I guess the owner of these squads should also be checked for, not just the statuses of the squads (if that's what is being done).

Scenario 4: You are stationed on an allied outpost, with your alliance mates, and the owner of the outpost gets kicked. Your squads are returning to the outpost. In this case, your squads stationed and the ones returning should again function as one and not kill each other.

Any loopholes you see, or any other scenarios you can think of, feel free to discuss :)

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 Post subject: Re: What did Power's squads say to the Power's squads?!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:33 pm 
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Seth wrote:
Sorry. As I stated, we cannot compensate for something that all players face on equal terms.

All broken game mechanics are on equal terms to the players though. Such as that nuke involving WAW from E1 they got compensated for being injured from the rogue nuke. It's exact same circumstance as this just involving a different scenario. I could not have prevented my squads from hitting that outpost by the time the player was removed.


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 Post subject: Re: What did Power's squads say to the Power's squads?!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:55 pm 
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The 'parked squads always defend' mechanic was introduced to avoid alliances kicking their own members in order to keep their armies safe from attack.
(allies used to leave their armies on friendly targets, and leave the alliance, thus making their armies untouchable until the threat is over)

You're welcome to suggest better ways to deal with this exploit
and I'll happily code it into the game.

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