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 Post subject: Re: Abusing, Bug, Cheated all in 1 from Gift alliance
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:59 am 
Second Lieutenant
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KANE. HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU HAVE TO BE TOLD. What you did was NOT using a game mechanic, or a game tactic, or a valid tactic. It was abusing a BUG. It was not a button there for you to click. It was a button which when used in a certain way, is a bug. A player SHOULD be penalised for doing what you did, because as you are in the BD Think tank, and you have access to a bug list. As you are a veteran player, you SHOULD know that what you did IS bug abuse.


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 Post subject: Re: Abusing, Bug, Cheated all in 1 from Gift alliance
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:03 am 
Lieutenant Major
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Think Tank has not met in over half a year, there's nothing to discuss...

and I have not checked the bug list, it's not my obligation to do so.

Whether the game mechanic is intended or not, it is a game mechanic. I did not alter the game in any way, abuse the way the game functions, or interact with it in any way other than normal. You can't punish a player for that, it is not the players responsiblity to play towards the Admin's preferences, he should not exercise preferences. A ban on one server, in one situation, should not be different than any other. Same way with relic drops, which is why I argued for standardized relic drops... this is not a new trend, Admins crafting gameplay experiences is a bad thing when it comes to actually changing the way the game is played, unless this gameplay change is well advertised and known to all who wish to play on the server.

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 Post subject: Re: Abusing, Bug, Cheated all in 1 from Gift alliance
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:05 am 
Second Lieutenant
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well its your fault for not looking at the bug list then isn't it, you can't say you didn't know it was a bug, or anything like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Abusing, Bug, Cheated all in 1 from Gift alliance
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:17 am 
Lieutenant Major
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The difference between a bug, exploit, and faulty game mechanic is entirely subjective and is not up to me to differentiate. Those that are bannable should be clearly and effectively available to the masses so that there is no confusion.

Just because I happen to have been added to a bug list last year to help, but was never able to have the free time to check it and assist in testing, does not mean I am obligated to check it regularly and infer punishments for anything on that list.

Just because it may be on the list doesn't mean it's necessarily bannable either, so your argument is worthless. The spy protection bug is on there too I'd wager, I don't see Darth Blitz banned for using it.

The subjectivity of the situation should eliminate any possibility to punish a player when the rules are not clearly defined, currently the Terms of Service say that an Admin can ban any player at any time for any reason, and this is not necessarily justice.

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 Post subject: Re: Abusing, Bug, Cheated all in 1 from Gift alliance
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:30 am 
Second Lieutenant
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[15:41:44] *****: Kane is acting like a ******* insurance company
[15:41:49] *****: Going on every technicality

You've just proved this point right.


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 Post subject: Re: Abusing, Bug, Cheated all in 1 from Gift alliance
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:38 am 
Lieutenant Major
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That implies that I'm not right, and so far I haven't seen any arguing or debate from your side aside from "You're cheating! The worst cheater ever!", if you'll notice, any actual debate points you've gone into, or claims you've made... I always address them.

Dismissing my argument by saying I'm arguing in a fashion that is has a stigma for being unfair to the little guys is ethically irresponsible in the fact that it avoids focusing on the issue, and instead attacks my character.

I don't know who said that, or if those words should carry any weight, but the method of my arguing should have no consequence. Please focus on the issue and my claims, so we may have a civilized discussion... if your side of the argument has any validity you shouldn't have to resort to anything else.

[16:41:44] *****: Knight is acting like a ******* child
[16:41:49] *****: Ignoring every adult discussion convention

See... I can post meaningless snippets too.

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 Post subject: Re: Abusing, Bug, Cheated all in 1 from Gift alliance
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:44 pm 
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psg188 wrote:
The difference between a bug, exploit, and faulty game mechanic is entirely subjective and is not up to me to differentiate.


If it is not up to you to differentiate then how can you insist that it is a game mechanic? Especially, when it is on the list of game bugs. You just dug yourself into a hole with that one.

You also asserted that I should be ban for using the "spy protection glitch". First of all, I want to make clear that I had no idea that there was anything wrong with the spy protection system until this debate, nor do I have access to a list of every bug in BD (unlike Kane who does).

Secondly, this glitch is not something someone can use actively or on purpose. We were racing Kane, I was going to launch a spy attack and you were putting up protection. I didn't hit a special sequence of keys to make the spy protection system change so that I could launch all my attacks.

Thirdly, I would like the bring attention to the fact that because of your advance knowledge of the tick changing "mechanics" of Battle Dawn, you were able to glitch your way into adding spy protection before the tick officially changed, while I was forced to wait until after the tick had completely changed and I reloaded the page.
You'll probably say too bad that I don't know that I can refresh before the tick changes at the right time to make half the tick go by and do stuff without having to click the refresh button on the "You cannot perform this action because a tick has changed" pop up box.

So if he blames my "supposed use/abuse" of the glitch in the spy protection glitch, I blame his use of the tick change glitch. I don't know if this is an official bug but apparently it can be manipulated by some players in order to gain an unfair advantage, and therefore, I believe that it should be added to the bug list, and fixed in the near future.

And how long would he like me to be banned for for my spy overpowering his protection because of the glitch in the spy protection system? I will gladly accept it on this world, as long as he is banned for the same amount of time from E1.

~Darth Blitz


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 Post subject: Re: Abusing, Bug, Cheated all in 1 from Gift alliance
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:32 pm 
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Kane, even though i don't know you, i used to think of you as an expert player. Even after you performed that bug, i still had some respect for you. If you had admitted your mistake, that respect would have slowly returned. Now, that you have pleaded innocent and called this a "game mechanic" and a "Tactical strategy" the respect i used to have for you has died, most likely never to return. After that you even try to avoid accusations and say that these opinions are "biased." Plus, you complain about a six hour ban?!? This has made me lose the respect for you, that by this point, i already didn't have. The last point i want to make is that you think that the admins decision affected the outcome of the entire round. Even people who have been playing for a month know that the game isn't over when you are conquered.

btw, note that this is coming from an unbiased point of view since i have never played with/against you.

Respect for Dirt > Current respect for Kane

Ponk out.

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 Post subject: Re: Abusing, Bug, Cheated all in 1 from Gift alliance
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:13 pm 
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Alright. I would like to apologize to the members of both alliances involved in this as well as to all of you guys for having to even debate this.

Unfortunately, Kane is right about one thing, and that is the fact that this really boils down to being our fault as developers. We are the ones who let this thing slide. Had we done our jobs properly, there would be nothing to debate. His arguement that it was faulty mechanics is accurate. It is a design flaw that was identified some time ago and simply was never properly atoned for. That being said, he did not have to manipulate anything and in fact all he had to do was click a button to do what was done.

We can sit and speculate about how guilty he is or is not, but no one can say beyond a reasonable doubt that he really did know for sure that this was a bannable offense. In this respect, everyone should indulge in that. He has been punished regardless, and I have punished players as well for this and to be perfectly honest, I feel horrible about it. Even Michael, the game creator feels as though it is wrong to ban someone for faulty game mechanics, and says himself that this is what this issue revolves around.

Anyway, All bans and biased arguements aside, please rest assured that we see how much these things affect you as players and we take full responsability for not rectifying this situation before it became such a problem. We feel horrible that things came to this and we have decided that time for change is long since passed.

As of the time of this post, we will be stepping up our bug-killing efforts to the maximum capacity we can possibly handle. This not only means technical efforts will be made, but logistics and staffing solutions need to be anylized to ensure that we are doing every possible thing we can to ensure that you players do not have to deal with any flaw, bug, or exploit any longer than is absolutely necessary. We realize that there will always be bugs and that is a natural part of the development process, but that does not mean that we should ever ignore bugs or flaws or subject players to bugs or flaws that have already been identified.

We hear you guys, and we see how frustrating all of this can be for you! I am here to vow that you will begin seeing changes in the way things are done within a couple of weeks if not a few days. More bugs will be fixed and more attention will be paid to these situations should they arise.

Again, all of this is more our fault then Kane's or anyone elses, and for that you all have our sincere apologies. Had we done our job properly in the first place, there would have been no need for this thread and all of the debates therein! This cannot be sustained, so it is time to make the necessary changes.

Thank you all for having patience with us in previous days. We haven't given you guys the attention and integrity that you deserve and we are already well on our way to rectifying that. It is time for us to step up efforts to make sure we don't make that mistake again.

I am sorry, but I have to lock this thread now. There is no longer any need for it, as this is our fault and our problem. We cannot allow anyone to bear the brunt of what is rightfully our problem.

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