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 Post subject: Re: Apology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:47 pm 
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mfreak wrote:
Cyberpunk, no one is doing propaganda. Its just plain facts. The thread is about someone naming an alliance as TOE - The Ottoman Empire, when they were fighting ARM - Armenia. So people got offended and posted this thread. What some people are doing, is to come here and defend turkey. Its simple facts that I pointed out for example. No one is talking about the Armenian economy and such, its just about history, and its out there for everyone to see.

And yeah Ponk, its a pointless topic :) You could lock it if it doesnt serve any purpose.



bro, u right.
but i watched on tv in Russia 3 years ago a historian scientist talking about this buisness no havent for gencoide. even on united nations surveillance. dont trust the Wikidepia I can even change wikidepia so anyone can change.
anyway, i just wanna say it , if do not change their thoughts this business will never be results. i say for both sides Turk and Armenian.


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 Post subject: Re: Apology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:49 pm 
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Um what's happenin' here?

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 Post subject: Re: Apology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:05 pm 
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Ok guys, so since we started talking about this, i'll let you know some important facts.

Starting generaly about Armenia. It's 1 of oldest civilizations in the world, if not the oldest, and the 1st christian country in the world. Most of our wars were done to save our religion, and if not Armenia, who knows if the christianity would even exist today or not.

Talking about ancient times: there is a kinda stonehange in Armenia (called Qarahunge), similar to the stonehange in england, that is 7.500 years old and is considered as 1st stars obeservatory in the world. Thanks to it ancient armenians could know that the world is round, and also calculate correctly the diameter and the perimeter of the world, and have a correct calendar.
(P.S: Armenia is also the 1st vine making country too, 5.500 years ago ;) i say this cause everybody think vine is french ^^)

Another one building is 12.000 years old, which is considered as the oldest known creation.
All this is just to let you have a general opinion about armenia as a country and as a nation.


Now about Armenians, Turkey and our neighbours Georgia and Azerbaijan (turks).
They all consider us as ennemy, for some political historical and other reasons. But so you know, it's the armenians who made the capital of Georgia Tiflis, atleast their many important buildings etc... And it's an armenian who created their alphabet (which they deny :P).

About Azerbaijan. It also armenian who litteraly made Baku. Azerbaijan got petrol, and 134 of 140 of their petrol owners were armenians. And it's there where armenians made the 1st in the world petrol pipeline.
(p.s: Russian president Medvedev is an armenian, and Russian foreigne affairs minister is an armenian too, and a lot of others, the list is long)
Now talking about Turkey and Ottoman Empire. The whole Istanbul is made by armenians, go to Istanbul now and you won't find 1 famous thing that is not made by armenian hands, starting from their most famous mosques finishing with bridges and sultan (royal) palaces.
80% of Ottoman Empire commerce was run by armenians...

And talking about the genocide, it was a long organised crime. The official date of its memoration is the 24th of April 1915 (cause it's when they started killing all the intelectuals and famous armenians), but the killins started from 1880 untill 1921 when about 2 million armenian civils were murdered in most horrible ways... I bettter don't discribe how.

My grandma's family lived there in istanbul, and were very famous, all of them having titles of agha, pasha, effendi. But when killings started like only 10% of them survived, by escaping to other countries. That's why i'm so attached to this...


Anyways, i just had to tell all this. I know this was out of topic, but i just wanted to keep u informed since i see many of you didn't know all of these.

Take care guys!

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 Post subject: Re: Apology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:03 am 
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gevorg wrote:
Ok guys, so since we started talking about this, i'll let you know some important facts.

Starting generaly about Armenia. It's 1 of oldest civilizations in the world, if not the oldest, and the 1st christian country in the world. Most of our wars were done to save our religion, and if not Armenia, who knows if the christianity would even exist today or not.


yes, Thats true. i agree with you.

gevorg wrote:
Talking about ancient times: there is a kinda stonehange in Armenia (called Qarahunge), similar to the stonehange in england, that is 7.500 years old and is considered as 1st stars obeservatory in the world. Thanks to it ancient armenians could know that the world is round, and also calculate correctly the diameter and the perimeter of the world, and have a correct calendar.
(P.S: Armenia is also the 1st vine making country too, 5.500 years ago ;) i say this cause everybody think vine is french ^^) Another one building is 12.000 years old, which is considered as the oldest known creation.
All this is just to let you have a general opinion about armenia as a country and as a nation.


i dont so much Armenian ancient history u know better than me. must be true.




gevorg wrote:
Now about Armenians, Turkey and our neighbours Georgia and Azerbaijan (turks).
They all consider us as ennemy, for some political historical and other reasons. But so you know, it's the armenians who made the capital of Georgia Tiflis, atleast their many important buildings etc... And it's an armenian who created their alphabet (which they deny :P)

About Azerbaijan. It also armenian who litteraly made Baku. Azerbaijan got petrol, and 134 of 140 of their petrol owners were armenians. And it's there where armenians made the 1st in the world petrol pipeline.
(p.s: Russian president Medvedev is an armenian, and Russian foreigne affairs minister is an armenian too, and a lot of others, the list is long)
Now talking about Turkey and Ottoman Empire. The whole Istanbul is made by armenians, go to Istanbul now and you won't find 1 famous thing that is not made by armenian hands, starting from their most famous mosques finishing with bridges and sultan (royal) palaces.
80% of Ottoman Empire commerce was run by armenians...

And talking about the genocide, it was a long organised crime. The official date of its memoration is the 24th of April 1915 (cause it's when they started killing all the intelectuals and famous armenians), but the killins started from 1880 untill 1921 when about 2 million armenian civils were murdered in most horrible ways... I bettter don't discribe how.

My grandma's family lived there in istanbul, and were very famous, all of them having titles of agha, pasha, effendi. But when killings started like only 10% of them survived, by escaping to other countries. That's why i'm so attached to this...


Anyways, i just had to tell all this. I know this was out of topic, but i just wanted to keep u informed since i see many of you didn't know all of these.

Take care guys!


and tihs we have problem.
that in have a logic error.
bro lets thinking in today's , who rich has his weapon. right ? so if was Armenian peoples has The whole Istanbul is made by armenians , It also armenian who litteraly made Baku or it's the armenians who made the capital of Georgia Tiflis starting from their most famous mosques finishing with bridges and sultan (royal) palaces.
80% of Ottoman Empire commerce was run by armenians ... i see was your peoples must be so rich and authoritarian in Ottooman Empire . How did these people have disappeared in a moment ? very difficult to believe. if youe are authoritarian and rich no one can touch you. and one more think, in was 1915 turk population 8,5 million in Anatolia , 8 Million Turk( 4 milion Older or young or women) surviving 4 m. Turk how to kill 2 million Armenians in a few years ?

idont know mate. i think these are all a imperialist game and succeeded. Turkey fighting Armenia , Greece figthing Macedonia , Georgia fighting Russia and NOBODY development nobody cant make social services .... USA sales to us guns Israel sales to us guns lets fithting.
we lived together for many years maybe one day we will again.

im sorry for out of topic.


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 Post subject: Re: Apology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:44 am 
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Cyberpunk, its entirely possible for a community of intellectuals and rich people to be reduced to nothing in a matter of days. Think about the Jews during the Holocaust. All their possessions were taken and they were rendered without anything in a matter of months. In a matter of years 2/3rd of Europe's Jews were killed. So its entirely possible.

Like Gevorg said, most business etc were owned by Armenians and the Ottoman Empire, treated them like second class citizens. I think they treated anyone who didn't believe in Islam with contempt. The others left the region, the armenians stayed back, thus suffering oppression. From what I read, the armenians were indeed poor, and a group of intellectuals started arising, after various reform movements enforced by even the UK, Russia etc., Most of the Armenians were also educated in other prestigious institutions across Europe.

Again from what I read, they were subject to high taxes, failure to pay resulted in death, rape, protection extortion and various other sorts of crimes. On April 24, 1915, intellectuals etc were ordered to be arrested. There were mass deportations, death marches - people were made to walk to Syria, without food, water, shelter. There was one instance recorded where a whole village of armenians - about 5000 people were burned alive, and even the Turkish prisoners went mad, seeing the horrific sight. The Ottoman empire even formed a paramilitary (Hamidaye or something if my spelling is right) force sort of thing, to fight armenians who had taken up arms against the state, to protect themselves. There were even reports of concentration camps that were built, but I haven't seen enough evidence of this.

So it isnt a question of killing 2 million people over a few days, its a question of oppressing people over a period of time that results in people dying and making laws that guarantee wiping out an entire community of people. This is genocide. These probably reached an excess in 1915 and the years after that. But every report I have read, since I became interested in this topic places death tolls at 600,000 - 2 million. That many people dont die by accident.

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 Post subject: Re: Apology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:18 am 
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Yep, mrfreak said it all correctly. The main reason why they did that to Armenians was that we are christians, and whatever they did we never agreed to change religion ( many changed, like albania, bosnians etc...). They did the same to greeks btw, but mostly to Armenians.

And before they started the killings, they started calling all men to go to " do works, build stuff", so they separate men from families (and kill later), then they went to each armenian houses and take all weapons armenians had, by torturing them, some were so scared that even if they didn't have any weapon, they went to find some, so when turkish army comes, they have something to give, and don't get tortured.

And the way they killed Armenians it's beyond humanly imaginable...

And it's true about armenians building all that i said. It's a fact. You can go make researches about it. And also it's important that you know it was the Ottoman army, litteraly chasing armenian civils... What could we do, without weapon, without men... It wasn't a war. It's actualy same as the holocaust, but they did that on OUR homeland.

But still the main power of Ottomans were their army. We with greeks were the intelectuals and the "builders" of turkey.

Main reason why turkey still denies it, is that they will have to pay to us if they accept, as by money, as by giving us back our homeland.
And what about why so less countries accepted the Genocide, is that cause Turkey is warning everybody to cut all kinda link between the countries, like economy, trade, turism and all other things, so why other big countries would lose so much money, just for accepting the Armenian Genocide? See... That's why.

A good example is Israel, they suffered more genocides than any other country in the world, but they didn't accept the Armenian Genocide, cause they got HUGE trades and deals with turkey and USA ( Weapon, economy, commerece etc... also political reasons).


P.S: The killings started with their sultan Abdul Hamid (if i'm not wrong) also called Red Sultan. He started deleting villages from 1880s.
The one who followed him, was so called Ataturk. The main leader of the genocide.
After the genocide, he said: " I did something in some days, what nobody could do it before me during years" meaning the armenian masacres.

Any why you think holocaust happened ? Think good. Armenian Genocide was during WW1, holocaust during WW2. And as some of you know, Germany and Turkey were allies, and helped eachother.
Germany saw that Armenian Genocide staid unjudged, so he took the example from turks, and did the same to Jews.

In 1939, just before giving the order to kill all jews, Hitler said: "Who afterall remembers the armenian massacres".


Well guys, sorry this took so long ^^. But since we started talking about this, let's finish this topic properly.


Take care guys!

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 Post subject: Re: Apology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:27 am 
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cyyberpunk wrote:
we lived together for many years maybe one day we will again.



We never were against. But it's Turkey who must do the 1st step, by recognising the genocide, and appologizing for it.
Same as did Germany to Israel.

You can't kill some1 then say let's be friends :P
Logical enough no ?

Before the nationalities, we are all humans afterall.
And i got some turkish friends, few. Who respect and agree with my opinions, and i respect them too.
I don't blame them all since since they are kids, they learn to hate us, and learn only the bad about us (it's what they learn in schools, and from propaganda on TV). At some point it's normal that they deny all (the young generation) but there is internet now today (youtube is blocked in turkey so they don't watch genocide videos) and they should do the reasearch and see the truth...
And it's the time to open the eyes.
How long can turkey escape from their past.

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 Post subject: Re: Apology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:36 am 
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Quote:
A good example is Israel, they suffered more genocides than any other country in the world, but they didn't accept the Armenian Genocide, cause they got HUGE trades and deals with turkey and USA ( Weapon, economy, commerece etc... also political reasons).


Yup, In 1982, the Israeli Foreign Ministry attempted to prevent an international conference on genocide, held in Tel Aviv, from including any mention of the Armenian Genocide. Several reports suggested that Turkey had warned that Turkish Jews might face "reprisals", if the conference permitted Armenian participation.

And of late, I read that in 2011, a move was passed in the Israeli parliament, and this case is being submitted for research. Once its done, I hope they will accept it as Genocide. Even countries like France and Germany who have officially recognized it, have called on Turkey to apologize and accept this as a fact.

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 Post subject: Re: Apology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:48 am 
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mfreak wrote:

And of late, I read that in 2011, a move was passed in the Israeli parliament, and this case is being submitted for research. Once its done, I hope they will accept it as Genocide. Even countries like France and Germany who have officially recognized it, have called on Turkey to apologize and accept this as a fact.


Ever wondered why they sudenly wanna change their oppinion ?
To become more humanist and accept a crime against the humanity as it is? NO ofcourse no lol... They would never do that for it.

The reason is, idk if u followed what happened, but Turkish president(or the prime minister, forgot) mentioned during a meet with Israeli president, about the killings of palistinians by israelies, and said to Israel to stop it, and it got israeli president out of nerves, and he said look who talks about the killings, he said remember your past!
And then turkish president got very angry, and just went out of the conference blaming israeli president.
And sicne then their link became weaker, but just for the money (economy, trade and military) they kept the link.


Similar thing happened in Europe btw, they made a conference and wanted to accept the Armenian Genocide with all the countries from the European Union. But guess what, USA stoped it and said to Europe to cancel that idea (G.W.Bush) and Europe canceled it...

WHO cares, no1. Show money, and they will all sudenly "care".

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