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 Post subject: Re: Let's encourage Sub abuse!!!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:48 pm 
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GerberBaby1 wrote:
1. I suggested NOT having twilight lead the sub because i have never seen him play or lead an alliance before and it turned out that I was completely right.

2. A good sub leader does not get 5 of his members conquered in the first 40 ticks of the era.

3. A good sub leader has to be the most active member of the alliance and twilight was not active. I don't care wether you have a life or not twilight. That doesn't matter as a sub leader. If you are not active then that is your choice and not ours. You forced our hand.

4. You don't recruit a sub leader who starts a thread about sub abuse. You just don't!

5. A good sub leader listens to his leader (main alliance leader)without question. A good member listens to his leader without question.

6. When you get kicked from an alliance twilight. You don't slander them. Especially when you leave on account of your own actions. Leave with grace and dignity and you leave with respect. Leave angrily and you lose the small amount of respect you get.

all i have to say is wow 1st rule of many alliances i've been is real life comes 1st and these arent losing alliances they are top alliances that won leaders are people to and things come up in everyones life. I'm currently leading an alliance in F4 granted my rank is 9th right now but their are days i cant be on and does my alliance criticize me and say you are a terrible leader? also take note this is leading a main alliance and not a sub)

no they dont say that at all RL is a whole lot more important than a game like this and what you said about twilight was way out of hand calm you temper and if all you want to do in the forums is insult people then get out

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 Post subject: Re: Let's encourage Sub abuse!!!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:17 am 
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This is the exact reason I hate subs, and will never play in one. I think there is a misunderstanding here about what a sub alliance should essentially be. A sub is an alliance that helps the main yes. But it is not supposed to be an alliance, overseen by the main leader. A sub is a sovereign alliance. They can expand anywhere they want to, they can have their own wars and make their own decisions.

Furthermore, Daerduo, you are wrong here. Its tick 120 something. Alliance strength cannot be gauged in a 100 ticks. Rank, score, power levels dont matter. What if I had more units than you and you had more conquers? Your score and power will still be more, but you wouldn't be able to fight me. You shouldn't have ideally interfered with how the sub was performing. Leave the sub be, and let them play at their own speed. Interfering only results in a slave alliance, that will actually not be of any good use in the future. If the guys get conquered, it isnt the leaders responsibility but shows lack of teamwork in general. The sub leader should just kick the dudes that dont act as a team or teach them. Have a common ally chat for all so people get to know each other. That way you can swap members you know.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's encourage Sub abuse!!!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:33 am 
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mfreak wrote:
Furthermore, Daerduo, you are wrong here. Its tick 120 something. Alliance strength cannot be gauged in a 100 ticks. Rank, score, power levels dont matter. What if I had more units than you and you had more conquers? Your score and power will still be more, but you wouldn't be able to fight me. You shouldn't have ideally interfered with how the sub was performing. Leave the sub be, and let them play at their own speed. Interfering only results in a slave alliance, that will actually not be of any good use in the future. If the guys get conquered, it isnt the leaders responsibility but shows lack of teamwork in general. The sub leader should just kick the dudes that dont act as a team or teach them. Have a common ally chat for all so people get to know each other. That way you can swap members you know.

Ty, will keep that in mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's encourage Sub abuse!!!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:18 am 
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Haven, your comment that I was not active is totally absurd. I have been online almost all day every day for the past 3 weeks. How does taking one day off to go see a once a year Racing Event qualify as being an inactive player? You're ridiculous! No one's going to agree with that!!!! :)

Mfreak's point that you cannot gauge alliance strength by tick 100 is about the same thing I was trying to say. In E4, PHE was the number one alliance for some 300 ticks, but now they don't even exist. I understand your reasoning for dropping me and switching up the alliance. I just think you were premature and unfair in your assessment.

Haven, I think the rest of your points were adequately met by those who have posted before me. I have no desire to slander TSK. I think you guys are a fine alliance, I just obviously and completely disagree with your approach to subbing.

I think Mfreak's got the right idea about it, though I tend a little more towards a unification when it comes to wars.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's encourage Sub abuse!!!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:54 am 
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Yes life comes first. We accept that, for instance Ferr3t had a family reunion yesterday and was gone the last 24 ticks. He let us know and we worked around it. If by life you are talking abbot obstacles like a family member dying, going on a trip, or something like that then yes we would make acceptions. However if by life you are talking about everyday life where they are constantly only being on once a day or for only 4 hours a day then no, that is not an excuse, that is a choice made by the player. Regardlessly, as you said, it was a rank 9 alliance that you were leading. We are not trying to lead a rank 9 alliance, we are trying to lead a rank 1 main and a rank 3 sub. Even if you add the numbers together you don't get rank 9.

Mfreak, yes in an ideal world a sub would be self-suffucient however at some points in an era it does require the efforts of the mains leader. For instance when you are working with a new or inexperienced sub leader or even one you just don't trust. If I recall you attempted your self-sufficient sub technique on SYN2 or whatever they were on M4 last era and they did litte to nothing for you guys.

As for kicking members early on. Yes power is not everything. However if the player is conquered, separated from the hive, and inactive. Then the player should be removed. And so 5 KST players were removed. Oliver was also removed due to her having have backstabbed me twice in two consecutive eras and her being inactive. Others were kicked for other stuff butthey are inter alliance affairs and should not be delved to deep into. I do not see the difference of a sub and just another alliance with the way that you are doing this. You give the leader independence in the majority of the leadership duties but the leader of the main still has critical rolls with the sub leader and if he does not fill them then the sub will never be an effective sub and will just sit there mooching off of the mains protection.

Twilight you were quite inactive. If you need me to I can search for all the messages we have sent back and forth, make a tick log and present it in the forums. I will call you inactive because you were inactive.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's encourage Sub abuse!!!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:17 am 
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Yeah like I said, being inactive is lack of teamwork. Talk to the person, and if he/she doesn't understand then remove them. Or if the person never gets online, then go ahead remove them.

Twilight and Haven, I talked about independence in wars because technically you cannot draw a line between an ally and a sub. I mean at what level does an ally or a brother alliance become a sub or vice versa? Does helping in war mean a sub? Does handing over of relics count as a sub? Does taking orders from another alliance mean the alliance taking orders is a sub? You can never tell. Subs in my opinion are just another way of calling an ally or a brother alliance. Its for this reason that too many subs aren't good for any alliance.

Haven, as for SYN2, we never meant for them to be a sub. He was conquered and was leading an alliance that was spamming us every now and then. So I told him, retag to SYN2 and dont attack. SYN2 was very new, infact maybe only their first era here and most of them were just inactive. We just wanted to get rid of spamming, so we made them subs, though in reality they were of no use. Nor did we expect anything from them. It was just a result of a diplomatic effort to get rid of a minor issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's encourage Sub abuse!!!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:34 am 
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I don't have the time to talk to them. Like I said we need a sub leader that we don't have to tell constantly what to do, but listens to us when we have important things to do. The change in leadership. Darklighter has his crap in check unlike twilight. He already has the entire sub setting up relocation OPs to our new hive location and a bunch have built them already. As opposed to the 100 ticks twilight had to do it and did not. Not to mention the fact that twilight was to lead the sub from the beginning. We told them NOT to build near our starting location. Where do you guess that the majority built? Right by us. This exemplifies either lack of control or inactivity and in this case I feel both on twilights part.

Regular allies and brother alliances can still hand over relics. The difference between brother alliances and subs are the following in my opinion

1: Brother alliances can make their own subs and subs cannot
2: Brother alliances can negotiate their own treaties however their bond to their fellow brother alliance tales precedence over any other agreement and subs are not allowed to.
3: It is not ok to poach alliance members from a brother alliance however it s acceptable from a sub
4: Brother alliances can declare war, subs cannot

These are the four I can think if right now. It is 3 AM.

But my point is although the line is a fine one between sub and brother alliance it is still there. Now, this may be my sleep deprivation talking, but why is the differences between sub and brother alliance brought up? I can't think right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's encourage Sub abuse!!!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:54 am 
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Quote:
1: Brother alliances can make their own subs and subs cannot
2: Brother alliances can negotiate their own treaties however their bond to their fellow brother alliance tales precedence over any other agreement and subs are not allowed to.
3: It is not ok to poach alliance members from a brother alliance however it s acceptable from a sub
4: Brother alliances can declare war, subs cannot


All these 4 points are invalid. I have seen subs make subs of their own. I have seen subs make their own relationships. You cannot breathe down someone's neck, he will instantly retag and tell you that he is not gonna be your sub anymore. You can go ahead attack, but then you will lose credibility because of your varying political stand. So most of the times you just let them go. Similarly, I am playing in SoLD right now, some members from the Main join the sub and sub members join the main. Also subs can actually go ahead and declare war on their own. And a lot of times the main comes to the subs aid too. But yeah, if its the main opponent then the sub and the main have to work together.

The reason I brought up the differences between a sub and an ally was because I consider them the same :)

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 Post subject: Re: Let's encourage Sub abuse!!!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:34 am 
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A little tired here but there are a few things I want to address...
Haven...
I am very active and if I didn't respond to your messages more than once or twice a day it's because I don't relish logging in on a world and doing nothing. After creating those first basic resource structures, you have to wait for 24 or so ticks before you can create the next ones.... then after the next ones you have to wait even longer before your population and such have gotten to the point where you can build up enough to make those final ones... Then you have to start actually making squads of units... THEN and only THEN is a colony able to actively play the game.... Until that point I had given the alliance coherent and easily followed orders, and stayed on top of all messages sent to me.

So Yes dig up those messages and post them for everyone to see Haven! Just because I was not sitting on my computer staring at my Mars 4 screen waiting for you to message me so I could instantly respond did not mean I was not active and available to Duo on Msn or Skype for anything within an hours notice. For goodness sake man, I am so serious about my activity that for the people I trust I have actually given my phone number out, so if they deem it necessary, they can CALL me in the middle of the night and have me log in and do what needs to be done.

I was most upset at Duo because he plays with me on F4 and knows exactly how often I am on, and if he couldn't reach me by skype or msn he could easily reach me there.

Concerning starting location....

Dude... Why are you getting on my case about that? Anyone who agreed prior to alliance startup built away from the alliance. I posted my coords in the TSK thread on tick 1, before any other TSK members got around to it. If Ry guy, Darklighter, and the others who were supposed to be with me from the beginning can't read, that ain't my fault. The others who joined after the fact only found out about TSK and KST in-game. How were they supposed to create their colonies at a pre arranged start location they didn't know about?

Your assertions that KST's starting location was not handled well is just Stupid!
And of course Darklighter is doing better than I am! He's had 100 ticks extra for his members to build resources since he became leader. I would be doing exactly the same thing in his position right now because we would have the resources required for such!

Again, it is simply impossible to do better than I was doing without Boosting. Try it yourself.
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Edit: SERIOUSLY dudes. Go NOW to a 1 tick server and make a colony and don't boost ANYTHING. No blue tokens, no red tokens, and no trading, and tell me how it goes... You have no right to tell me I could have been more active or had a better ranked alliance, or had a larger sphere of influence without doing that!


If you can have your colony Combat ready within 100 ticks that way, then please tell me how... and remember, you gave me less time than that to establish KST.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's encourage Sub abuse!!!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:06 am 
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all of this finger pointing and b*tching can stop now. Twilight, I'll talk with you in msn to hopefully mend some harsh feelings between us.
Some final words though...Haven, you have no right calling Twilight inactive. I've seen twilight play in f4, and, correct me if I'm wrong, staying up once till 5am sorting out a nap? I've always been able to reach twilight easily, and the only reason why I even bring up that one day absence was because I was apologizing and giving a reason for why I had to remove him without telling him.
Twilight, I let this slide at the beginning of the era, but I actually did give you and the other members of the sub who were joining at the time a clear starting location.

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Message subject: Re: Irritating....Folder: Sent messages
sub for TSK (m4), N:779 E:19778
Sub will have a tough job of holding the hive.

You ended up not starting there, but I let that slide. Just an FYI. Also, sub members beside our hive really wasn't twilight's fault, more like a combination of my fault of recruiting a couple (like, 3) people beside our hive who may have been troubles to deal with and some people not starting, like Twilight said, where they were supposed to.

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