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 Post subject: Re: Latest patch 3.4
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:53 pm 
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Or here is a simpler fix, leave it exactly the way it is but put a message the first time someone quits stating it hurts their rank. That directly fixes what you say you have a problem with now being that people do not know it hurts them. I still believe my other point remains though in that rankings are superficial, they are a means to stroke our own ego but the community knows our actual reputation. Also let's go back to what you said about the people leaving with 1 or 2 turns left to find another match where they stand a chance, do you believe they should be penalized too? Because they are simply saving time and being courteous so do they deserve to lose credits? (When I say lose credits I mean either by not earning any from quitting or actually having credits taken from them)

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 Post subject: Re: Latest patch 3.4
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:28 pm 
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Korupt wrote:
Or here is a simpler fix, leave it exactly the way it is but put a message the first time someone quits stating it hurts their rank. That directly fixes what you say you have a problem with now being that people do not know it hurts them. I still believe my other point remains though in that rankings are superficial, they are a means to stroke our own ego but the community knows our actual reputation. Also let's go back to what you said about the people leaving with 1 or 2 turns left to find another match where they stand a chance, do you believe they should be penalized too? Because they are simply saving time and being courteous so do they deserve to lose credits? (When I say lose credits I mean either by not earning any from quitting or actually having credits taken from them)


Rankings are not just a stroke of our own ego. I am sitting on all the money I need (for now) and I have all the mech builds I could need for now. Rank is the only thing for me to care about (well not exactly true, but if you read further I will elaborate further on this point). Furthermore, I think the format of the game affects the importance of rank.

This game pits one tactic (and knowledge of fundamentals/strategies) against another. Rank is NOT status, but rather an overall aggregate measure of how successful one's tactics are. Why do chess players care about rank? For the same reason — because it lets players know whom will offer them a fair challenge so that said players can learn and become better chess players. In fact, the logic of the game has its fair similarities with chess (albeit quite remedially).

So what does rank do for me? If relatively accurate, it gives the range of players I need to be watching so that I can become a better player and learn some tactical insights that I may not have picked up by myself. At this point in my SM career, learning the most I can at every build tactically is the ONLY thing I care about. However, for this feat to be accomplished the accuracy of the ranking system is essential.

@captain1821
Everyone has their own way of articulating things, but I cannot say I have found a single instance since my previous comment where I have disagreed with your thought process! Thank you for numbering all the gripes of this problem, it made assessing this topic very fluid and accessible to a new reader! Very impressed overall!

@lilconquer
Exactly what I was getting around to say — also made me lol a little.

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 Post subject: Re: Latest patch 3.4
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:41 pm 
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SideOneDummy wrote:


So what does rank do for me? If relatively accurate, it gives the range of players I need to be watching so that I can become a better player and learn some tactical insights that I may not have picked up by myself. At this point in my SM career, learning the most I can at every build tactically is the ONLY thing I care about. However, for this feat to be accomplished the accuracy of the ranking system is essential.

I know some very good players that are not incredibly high in the ranking however and I know you do as well. Our respect and knowledge of their skill is not based on their rank alone but their reputation, our history with them, and for many of the longer time players our interactions on the forums with them to get to know them a bit better. Ranking plays a very minute part in all of that just like bd players know that rank means nothing and other things are more important our sm community knows that same thing holds true here as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Latest patch 3.4
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:59 pm 
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Korupt wrote:
Or here is a simpler fix, leave it exactly the way it is but put a message the first time someone quits stating it hurts their rank. That directly fixes what you say you have a problem with now being that people do not know it hurts them. I still believe my other point remains though in that rankings are superficial, they are a means to stroke our own ego but the community knows our actual reputation. Also let's go back to what you said about the people leaving with 1 or 2 turns left to find another match where they stand a chance, do you believe they should be penalized too? Because they are simply saving time and being courteous so do they deserve to lose credits? (When I say lose credits I mean either by not earning any from quitting or actually having credits taken from them)


This will fix only part of the problem. Informing players with in-game messages should be done every time something changes.

This solution will stop people that fight their asses off from quitting in the last 1 or 2 rounds. Obviously those people should not be penalized and I already talked about this:
5. The system is not fair to quitters. It gives them the option to quit from a game that they have no chance to win so they can move forward to the next one faster and penalizes them in a way that almost all of them are not aware of. Most quitters, quit in the last 1 or 2 rounds, when they are sure that they will lose and there is nothing wrong with that.

It will do nothing for the first reason
1. Cheaters can manipulate our rankings in a very drastic way.

It will do nothing for the second reason
2. The system is not fair when it comes to random disconnections that happen frequently.

It will do something for the 4rth reason
4. Even if they learn about the system, most of them will not care and the system will keep failing in preventing quits plus it will keep harming the rankings of those that care and want to compete.

Most 1rst round quitters probably will not care and they will keep quitting.


@SideOneDummy

Thanks :P


@lilconquer

Right into the point sarcasm, I loled too.


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 Post subject: Re: Latest patch 3.4
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:19 am 
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captain1821 wrote:
Korupt wrote:
Or here is a simpler fix, leave it exactly the way it is but put a message the first time someone quits stating it hurts their rank. That directly fixes what you say you have a problem with now being that people do not know it hurts them. I still believe my other point remains though in that rankings are superficial, they are a means to stroke our own ego but the community knows our actual reputation. Also let's go back to what you said about the people leaving with 1 or 2 turns left to find another match where they stand a chance, do you believe they should be penalized too? Because they are simply saving time and being courteous so do they deserve to lose credits? (When I say lose credits I mean either by not earning any from quitting or actually having credits taken from them)


This will fix only part of the problem. Informing players with in-game messages should be done every time something changes.

This solution will stop people that fight their asses off from quitting in the last 1 or 2 rounds. Obviously those people should not be penalized and I already talked about this:
5. The system is not fair to quitters. It gives them the option to quit from a game that they have no chance to win so they can move forward to the next one faster and penalizes them in a way that almost all of them are not aware of. Most quitters, quit in the last 1 or 2 rounds, when they are sure that they will lose and there is nothing wrong with that.
So with this one you want to remove their option to leave when they have no chance, that is what I am getting from this.
It will do nothing for the first reason
1. Cheaters can manipulate our rankings in a very drastic way.
Cheaters beat us by cheating to beat us not because we quit when we see them. I know the weapon glitch causes you to seem like you quit but I have not really had it happen to me that often where I could say that it is having a huge impact on rankings. It does suck I agree and I hope they fix it soon but it is not a drastic impact as you say, some of the best builds around are still very high in rankings. I could only see this point being valid if all the top 100 players were exploiters.
It will do nothing for the second reason
2. The system is not fair when it comes to random disconnections that happen frequently.
I have not once randomly disconnected in the hundreds of matches I have played so I really feel like this is more an issue you exp rather than the community as a whole. As I said before I would honestly think it is more likely than not that it is your isp, modem, or firewall. I know in other games my firewall wouldn't play nice with people and would randomly kick everyone out of a lobby when I was host. :lol:

It will do something for the 4rth reason
4. Even if they learn about the system, most of them will not care and the system will keep failing in preventing quits plus it will keep harming the rankings of those that care and want to compete.
If these people simply don't care and just keep quitting while the ones that do care only quit when they have to or when victim of an exploit than the ones who care will still be at the top.

Most 1rst round quitters probably will not care and they will keep quitting.



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 Post subject: Re: Latest patch 3.4
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:12 am 
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captain1821 wrote:
Also, quitting a game, is an option and only a very small number of players that found this topic know that "Quitting online matches reduces rank dramatically".

I disagree, this message exists at least since I started playing (monthes ago), as well as other excellent advices :
Spoiler:
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Latest patch 3.4
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:33 am 
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Korupt wrote:
captain1821 wrote:
Korupt wrote:
Or here is a simpler fix, leave it exactly the way it is but put a message the first time someone quits stating it hurts their rank. That directly fixes what you say you have a problem with now being that people do not know it hurts them. I still believe my other point remains though in that rankings are superficial, they are a means to stroke our own ego but the community knows our actual reputation. Also let's go back to what you said about the people leaving with 1 or 2 turns left to find another match where they stand a chance, do you believe they should be penalized too? Because they are simply saving time and being courteous so do they deserve to lose credits? (When I say lose credits I mean either by not earning any from quitting or actually having credits taken from them)


This will fix only part of the problem. Informing players with in-game messages should be done every time something changes.

This solution will stop people that fight their asses off from quitting in the last 1 or 2 rounds. Obviously those people should not be penalized and I already talked about this:
5. The system is not fair to quitters. It gives them the option to quit from a game that they have no chance to win so they can move forward to the next one faster and penalizes them in a way that almost all of them are not aware of. Most quitters, quit in the last 1 or 2 rounds, when they are sure that they will lose and there is nothing wrong with that.
So with this one you want to remove their option to leave when they have no chance, that is what I am getting from this.
OMG! I can't believe that after all the explaining I did on this matter you understand something completely different. If I wanted to remove that option I would say "remove that option". It would be that clear. As it is very clear everything I said on this matter. Once more I will explain it in different words and I hope you will not make your own conclusions again. Right now the system if not fair to players that quit in the very last rounds. Those players prefer to move on to the next game than wasting time on a lost game, which is fine, and the system gives them that opportunity. At the same time the system penalizes them without any warning and obviously this is not fair. This is only a small part of the problem and your suggestion will fix only this small part of the problem.

It will do nothing for the first reason
1. Cheaters can manipulate our rankings in a very drastic way.
Cheaters beat us by cheating to beat us not because we quit when we see them. I know the weapon glitch causes you to seem like you quit but I have not really had it happen to me that often where I could say that it is having a huge impact on rankings. It does suck I agree and I hope they fix it soon but it is not a drastic impact as you say, some of the best builds around are still very high in rankings. I could only see this point being valid if all the top 100 players were exploiters.
"but it is not a drastic impact as you say" Please don't say that I said things that I never said. I never said that. I also don't care if the impact is huge or small. I care that there is an impact. If you need 100 exploiters at the top to see this as a valid point, then there is something very wrong here. I don't want to see a single exploiter at the top and I don't even talk about this and this is not the case here. The problem is that exploiters makes us seem like quitting and because "Quitting online matches reduces rank dramatically" they manipulate our rankings.
NOTE: I don't talk about exploiters manipulate THEIR rankings. I talk about exploiters manipulate OUR rankings. I hope you understand the difference.
Also it is irrelevant that it doesn't happen to you. It happens and it happens a lot. See the images I already posted. It happened to me at least 4 times yesterday. Except that, it doesn't need to happen a lot in order to be fixed. Something is broken or not fair? It needs fixing.


It will do nothing for the second reason
2. The system is not fair when it comes to random disconnections that happen frequently.
I have not once randomly disconnected in the hundreds of matches I have played so I really feel like this is more an issue you exp rather than the community as a whole. As I said before I would honestly think it is more likely than not that it is your isp, modem, or firewall. I know in other games my firewall wouldn't play nice with people and would randomly kick everyone out of a lobby when I was host. :lol:
I already said, there is nothing wrong with my ISP, nothing wrong with my router, nothing wrong with my Internet connection in general. The game still disconnects you and once it disconnects you there is no way of reconnecting and one unlucky player will get a quitted game on his score. Once again it doesn't matter if it happens rarely. It happens, it "reduces rank dramatically" and needs fixing.

It will do something for the 4rth reason
4. Even if they learn about the system, most of them will not care and the system will keep failing in preventing quits plus it will keep harming the rankings of those that care and want to compete.
If these people simply don't care and just keep quitting while the ones that do care only quit when they have to or when victim of an exploit than the ones who care will still be at the top.
Then why you implemented this rule in the first place? You say you did it to deter quitting and yet you just admitted that it will do nothing about it. The only thing that it does is affecting the rankings of legit players in a negative way.

Most 1rst round quitters probably will not care and they will keep quitting.

You try to convince us that the system is somewhat fair and at the end the top players will be somewhere at the top. We are pointing out in every possible way that we do not want a “somewhat fair” system. We want a fair system. We are pointing where the problem is and we suggest an easy and simple solution and we just hope that you (the developers) might listen us.





lo3002 wrote:
captain1821 wrote:
Also, quitting a game, is an option and only a very small number of players that found this topic know that "Quitting online matches reduces rank dramatically".

I disagree, this message exists at least since I started playing (monthes ago), as well as other excellent advices :
Spoiler:
Image


This makes stronger the argument that this rule does nothing about quitting and therefor it is completely useless and harmful to those that do not hit the quit button and yet the system counts quits against them.

A useless and harmful rule, is a rule that needs to be deleted.


Merged your posts, please do not double post in the future simply edit your previous post to include what you want to add.


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 Post subject: Re: Latest patch 3.4
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:13 am 
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This solution will stop people that fight their asses off from quitting in the last 1 or 2 rounds. Obviously those people should not be penalized and I already talked about this:
5. The system is not fair to quitters. It gives them the option to quit from a game that they have no chance to win so they can move forward to the next one faster and penalizes them in a way that almost all of them are not aware of. Most quitters, quit in the last 1 or 2 rounds, when they are sure that they will lose and there is nothing wrong with that.

You do not see the contradiction in that? You say this will stop them from doing so and then you say there is nothing wrong with them doing so.

1. Cheaters can manipulate our rankings in a very drastic way. "but it is not a drastic impact as you say" Please don't say that I said things that I never said. I never said that.

You said they affect it in a drastic way and then you say that you never said they impact it in a drastic way. Anyways any impact does suck but most games have flaws and all we can do is work them out as fast as possible while making sure the fix does not cause more issues. Changing this however does not affect the exploiters ranking on leaderboards what would affect that is when the patch for those exploits is made.

I already said, there is nothing wrong with my ISP, nothing wrong with my router, nothing wrong with my Internet connection in general. The game still disconnects you and once it disconnects you there is no way of reconnecting and one unlucky player will get a quitted game on his score. Once again it doesn't matter if it happens rarely. It happens, it "reduces rank dramatically" and needs fixing.

Again this is not an issue with the penalty but another issue so that should not really factor in here. Also I haven't seen people really mention disconnecting on the forums really which is still what leads me to believe it is more localized to you than a game side issue. As I said I have never disconnected, not once in hundreds of matches and I do not believe in luck and I especially do not believe that my luck could be that good if it did exist. :lol:

Then why you implemented this rule in the first place? You say you did it to deter quitting and yet you just admitted that it will do nothing about it. The only thing that it does is affecting the rankings of legit players in a negative way.

Let me make something very clear before I go any further with this, I in no way did anything to do with the changes. I do not work for the game, I do not influence the changes, and I certainly do not create those changes. Now with that being said it gives people something to think about, whether they care about rank and want to stick it out a little longer or if they want to simply quit and move on. Having to think about it and make that decisions means it does deter quitting. This is not a change that only negatively affects "legit players" because even those legit players will have some time when they just want to quit a match, that is their right but they also should pay the price for it. However you are not quitting often therefore it should still remained balance and not hurt you too much. If you quit constantly however it will have a very major impact on you.

We are pointing where the problem is and we suggest an easy and simple solution and we just hope that you (the developers) might listen us.

Again I am going to say this explicitly to ensure there is no confusion I am not a developer and I do not control any of this. Now with that being said this is still a fair system, the issues you have with this system being implemented is not actually an issue with the system itself but an issue with disconnecting, or playing exploiters but that is not an issue with the mechanics of this system.

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 Post subject: Re: Latest patch 3.4
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:24 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Latest patch 3.4
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:18 am 
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@Korupt

Sometimes you make me believe that you are trolling.

You are a Moderator and since the beginning of this conversation you act like a link with the developers and this fine because this is what Moderators do and that’s why they are so needed. Now you tell us that you have nothing to do with this. If you are a link indeed you shouldn’t make this clarification. We know. If you are not a link, stop acting like one. In any case I will keep referring to you like you are a link, unless you clarify that you are not a link and you are just expressing your personal opinion.

I said “cheaters can manipulate our rankings in a very drastic way”.
You said “but it is not a drastic impact as you say". In other words you imply that somewhere I said “it is NOT a drastic impact” but I never said that.
Obviously those 2 statements are not the same. In fact they are the exact opposite.
I asked you to stop saying that I said things that I never said, yet you put this 2 together and you say that I said both. If this is not trolling then I do not know what it is.

You keep talking about a contradiction that only you can see. This is easy. I will not explain it again. Try to understand it.

Korupt wrote:
“Now with that being said it gives people something to think about, whether they care about rank and want to stick it out a little longer or if they want to simply quit and move on. Having to think about it and make that decisions means it does deter quitting.”


The FACTS show that this rule does nothing. Almost half of the games end up in quitting. First round quitters that do not even know or do not even care about getting penalized and last round quitters that should not be penalized, yet you penalize them because they do not know about the rule or they don’t care.

It is funny how you select what you want to answer and you dodge the important stuff.

Anyway, the request/suggestion has been made and all the arguments are here for everyone to see. I don't think that there is anything else to be said. In any case this is important for some players. The developers will decide if this is important for their game too.

Have a good day everyone!


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