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 Post subject: Re: banning the burqa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:10 am 
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Thats not the right attitude Diazepam.

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"Live in a country where that is the norm" is not the right thing to say


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I am sure you believe in your freedom of religion, speech and expression.


Your reason for telling me that I have the "wrong" attitude, view and say the "wrong" thing, is because you believe in freedom of religion, speech and expression? That's not contradictory at all!¨


In my view. I think there IS a "normal" and accepted way to dress in public where I come from. If everyone is walking around in jeans and shirts, suits etc.. Then you walk out your door with a group of your family/friends all dressed in tight leather with a giant cone hat, a scarf and ski goggles. With rubber spikes all across your legs. That isn't the normal and accepted way to dress. You're going to get funny looks whither you were originaly from a country where people dress like that or not. It's not going to be accepted as an appropriate and normal way to dress.

The same goes for people wearing burqas. Where i'm from its generally not socially acceptable to walk around with a full face mask on unless it's halloween or something. If you're walking around a public place with a group of friends/family with scarves covering all of your face apart from a thin slot for your eyes. The police will tell you to remove them. That's a fact. Unless of course you're from one of those countries that wear the burqa... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: banning the burqa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:25 am 
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do the burqa offense u? I think not. Everyone wears jeans around doesn't mean that u must wear jeans. U can wear everything u like, unless it's offensive or unsuitable (like wearing a bikini to a ceremonial events, or being naked or underwear,...). Heck u can even wear a medieval armor with a sword and a shield without any troubles. Of course people will look at u with a strange eyes, but that shouldn't be prohibited.

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 Post subject: Re: banning the burqa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:12 am 
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There are a few things wrong with your post aister.

1. At no point did I mention being offended by the way people dress. I'm not offended by many things, unless it's a direct insult to me. But it doesn't mean I can't have views about what I find acceptable to wear where and when.

2. You mention that its unsuitable to wear a bikini to a ceremonial event. Or to wear just underwear in public. How is that different from my views that it is unsuitable to wear something that covers your whole face and masks your identity? You just gave examples of what you think is unsuitable dress where you live, and so did I.

3. I stated in my post that I was talking about how people dress in the country I live in. So using the example that people can wear medieval armour with sword and shield without trouble... Well that's just wrong. Over here you will be stopped by the police if you walk around in metal armour. You will be stopped in you are carrying a sword. Even if it isn't sharpened and is for sale as decoration. You can't carry one in a public place.

4. Terrible grammar.


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 Post subject: Re: banning the burqa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:29 am 
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Diazepam wrote:
There are a few things wrong with your post aister.

1. At no point did I mention being offended by the way people dress. I'm not offended by many things, unless it's a direct insult to me. But it doesn't mean I can't have views about what I find acceptable to wear where and when.
I've stated that I think u aren't offended.

2. You mention that its unsuitable to wear a bikini to a ceremonial event. Or to wear just underwear in public. How is that different from my views that it is unsuitable to wear something that covers your whole face and masks your identity? You just gave examples of what you think is unsuitable dress where you live, and so did I.
by the word "unsuitable", I mean that the clothes that is unsuitable in a special occasions. A bikini in a serious meeting will distract attentions as well as ruin the serious mood. Being naked or wearing only underwear in public is some kind of sexual harassment. While a mask that cover ur face is completely fine in public, except for security matters, which I don't think u should be concerned of.

3. I stated in my post that I was talking about how people dress in the country I live in. So using the example that people can wear medieval armour with sword and shield without trouble... Well that's just wrong. Over here you will be stopped by the police if you walk around in metal armour. You will be stopped in you are carrying a sword. Even if it isn't sharpened and is for sale as decoration. You can't carry one in a public place.
I'll make sure to be careful to go to ur country. Cuz I tend to wear special clothes that are not normal around.

4. Terrible grammar.
I don't care :?

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 Post subject: Re: banning the burqa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:00 pm 
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In my view. I think there IS a "normal" and accepted way to dress in public where I come from. If everyone is walking around in jeans and shirts, suits etc.. Then you walk out your door with a group of your family/friends all dressed in tight leather with a giant cone hat, a scarf and ski goggles. With rubber spikes all across your legs. That isn't the normal and accepted way to dress. You're going to get funny looks whither you were originaly from a country where people dress like that or not. It's not going to be accepted as an appropriate and normal way to dress.


Yeah every culture has a normal and a generally accepted way of dressing, I do agree with that.

Quote:
The same goes for people wearing burqas. Where i'm from its generally not socially acceptable to walk around with a full face mask on unless it's halloween or something. If you're walking around a public place with a group of friends/family with scarves covering all of your face apart from a thin slot for your eyes. The police will tell you to remove them. That's a fact. Unless of course you're from one of those countries that wear the burqa...


But the same does not go for people wearing burqas. You cannot equate the burqa to a giant cone hat and a scarf or something similar. A giant cone hat or any funny looking costume, must just be a crazy way of dressing. A burqa on the other hand signifies something more personal, to the people that wear it. You dont look at people that wear a crazy costume and people that wear a burqa the same way. You look at the person wearing a burqa with a feeling of disgust, paranoia and tell me the word "terrorist" doesnt cross your mind. You would be lying if you said no. Since you said - "These people should go back to where they come from", I told you that attitude was wrong. Deal with it, every culture is present everywhere. Like I said its a globalized world. They will all do what they wanna do, and they should ideally be able to. What is needed is sensitivity from both sides, whether minority or majority.

I do agree that socially it might be awkward and unacceptable and might even cause tensions when people wear something like that and it is for that reason I said that adapting to a different culture, is essential for anyone. (My last para)

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4. Terrible grammar.


Oh relax. He is not from an english speaking country. I bet you cant speak Vietnamese (if I am right) as good as he does ;)

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 Post subject: Re: banning the burqa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:38 pm 
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aister wrote:
Diazepam wrote:
There are a few things wrong with your post aister.

1. At no point did I mention being offended by the way people dress. I'm not offended by many things, unless it's a direct insult to me. But it doesn't mean I can't have views about what I find acceptable to wear where and when.
I've stated that I think u aren't offended.

2. You mention that its unsuitable to wear a bikini to a ceremonial event. Or to wear just underwear in public. How is that different from my views that it is unsuitable to wear something that covers your whole face and masks your identity? You just gave examples of what you think is unsuitable dress where you live, and so did I.
by the word "unsuitable", I mean that the clothes that is unsuitable in a special occasions. A bikini in a serious meeting will distract attentions as well as ruin the serious mood. Being naked or wearing only underwear in public is some kind of sexual harassment. While a mask that cover ur face is completely fine in public, except for security matters, which I don't think u should be concerned of.

3. I stated in my post that I was talking about how people dress in the country I live in. So using the example that people can wear medieval armour with sword and shield without trouble... Well that's just wrong. Over here you will be stopped by the police if you walk around in metal armour. You will be stopped in you are carrying a sword. Even if it isn't sharpened and is for sale as decoration. You can't carry one in a public place.
I'll make sure to be careful to go to ur country. Cuz I tend to wear special clothes that are not normal around.

4. Terrible grammar.
I don't care :?


1. Don't even pretend... That's the funniest thing I've heard all day :lol:

2. Don't use a word and then claim that you meant it in a different way. My point stands. You think that certain clothes are unsuitable to wear in certain places/times/situations. And I have views concerning that too. Also, security does concern me. If someone walks about with metal armour and a sword. I'm not going to feel entirely safe. Lots of people also don't feel entirely safe when a large group of people walk past who cannot be identified due to hiding their face completely. Especially when it isn't what you usually see.

3. Well if you come here and try to walk around in metal plate armour with a sword... It wouldn't be well recieved. So maybe you shouldn't come here.


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@mrfreak. I'm not going to quote you because it will just make my post way too long.

I can equate the burqa to any other non-normal way of dressing if I am compairing the normality of it. (Talking about countries of different culture where it isn't the normal thing to wear).

You say that the burqa signifies something personal. For religious/personal belief reasons etc. I do understand that. And my example of another non-normal way to dress in my country was a made up one. I should have explained it better and said that the people wearing the spikey leather costume wore it because they felt it made them more spiritual and symbolised something they believe in. Does that make it any more suitable/acceptable in the eyes of the vast majority? No it doesn't. My arguement is from the view of someone who thinks people should dress how it is culturaly/sociably acceptable in their home country.

I didn't say "these people should go back to where they came from". But IF I did, you took it way out of context. And no, I don't look at people wearing a burqa with a feeling of disgust. Let's try not to get personal here. It's just a debate.

What I do have a problem with is when people who wear the burqa in this country complain that they are viewed differently because of it. They chose to move to a country with a huge difference in culture from their own and attempt to keep up their cultural traditions.
There are even laws that give them extra privileges over others, allowing them to cover their full face and mask their identity completely in public. I don't think they should have this extra privilege. That's why I think the burqa should be banned in Scotland.

If I decided to move to a country where everyone masked their faces and wore bright red shoes. I would do the same. I wouldn't wear what is socialy acceptable back in my home country and expect everyone to deal with it and call racism when people treat me differently. And If I couldn't wear that outfit due to my religion and/or personal beliefs, I wouldn't decide to move there.


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 Post subject: Re: banning the burqa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:47 pm 
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You say that the burqa signifies something personal. For religious/personal belief reasons etc. I do understand that. And my example of another non-normal way to dress in my country was a made up one. I should have explained it better and said that the people wearing the spikey leather costume wore it because they felt it made them more spiritual and symbolised something they believe in. Does that make it any more suitable/acceptable in the eyes of the vast majority? No it doesn't. My arguement is from the view of someone who thinks people should dress how it is culturaly/sociably acceptable in their home country


The thing is people DONT need to. Thats the beauty of a free country. Thats the freedom people HAVE. The very thing that makes Scotland different from say, Saudi Arabia (where women are compulsorily needed to wear the burqua, muslims or non muslim), is that freedom people have. So banning anything will be directly opposite to giving these people from other countries "special privileges" making the law as "outrageous" as the practice it bans. What I am trying to say, when I say "deal with it" is, that you have to come to accept the world as consisting of different cultures. Its gonna be like that. You are no more gonna be surrounded by Scottish neighbors but maybe by an Arab family, a Chinese family and an Indian family (in the future). And you gotta be able to accept every culture while following your own. Thats unity in diversity.

So what do these people do to you anyway? Do they disrupt your normal way of life? No they dont. They just have laws protecting their interests. And yeah every country has to be politically correct and I know it has its pros and cons, but it is what it is. There will always be emmigration and immigration, and culture as such should not be so protected. This goes for both sides though. When they come here they probably should try to assimilate than differentiate themselves.

Quote:
Let's try not to get personal here. It's just a debate.


You assume way too much my friend ;). I am Catholic on paper, Atheist by belief ;) (If you thought I was Muslim that is :P )

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What I do have a problem with is when people who wear the burqa in this country complain that they are viewed differently because of it. They chose to move to a country with a huge difference in culture from their own and attempt to keep up their cultural traditions.
There are even laws that give them extra privileges over others, allowing them to cover their full face and mask their identity completely in public. I don't think they should have this extra privilege. That's why I think the burqa should be banned in Scotland.

If I decided to move to a country where everyone masked their faces and wore bright red shoes. I would do the same. I wouldn't wear what is socialy acceptable back in my home country and expect everyone to deal with it and call racism when people treat me differently. And If I couldn't wear that outfit due to my religion and/or personal beliefs, I wouldn't decide to move there.


The truth is much different. There IS racism against these people. I am not saying everyone who takes a second look at them is racist. But however, it does exist. How much do people associate themselves with these guys? Say if you had a person wearing a burqa in your neighbourhood, and even if they were really good people, would you associate yourself and make friends with them and accept them?I dont think so. I know its not cuz of racism. But let us not be naive and think it is because of their burqa ;) Its a cultural gap. You dont understand their culture. You've not come to terms with it. And in some cases blind hatred. BTW its not an extra privilege. Its protecting the interests of a minority group. Very much valid in any society.

BTW your second example is not so valid. You are talking about moving from a free society, to a more conservative one. That is not what is happening here. These people have come from a very conservative, restrictive society to a free country to lead a better life, while following whatever they believe in. But truth be told, I do know one of my colleagues who worked in my team, that moved to Saudi Arabia, because they were staunch muslims. So even that happens, but in rare cases.

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 Post subject: Re: banning the burqa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:14 pm 
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in my country women go outside wearing just like a muslim

they are not muslim, but becuz of the bright sunlight and UV plus the air polution. So they're afraid of having their skin... become ugly. And they use everything to cover their face and all the other places as well: arm, legs,...

and I see nothing about that. Security? I've stated clearly that security members (guards, policemen, etc.) may have the right to ask them to remove the burqa (in private, ofc). If u say that I think we'll have to ban the sunglasses, hats, wigs and all other kinds of facial covering/changing things.

I can see that the burqa is un-normal. However u can't ban something just becuz they're un-normal.

My country there are usually yellow-skin people, with black hair and black eyes, doesn't mean we'll ban all who aren't yellow, doesn't have black hair and doesn't have black eyes. Even we have the freedom to dye our hair, wearing contact lenses just for the sake of the eye color.

The same here, as long as the outfit doesn't cause public disturbance, it's ok.

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 Post subject: Re: banning the burqa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:27 pm 
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I really do not know much for international laws and regulations, so please forgive me; however, I feel Church and state should be separate everywhere, unless you are in a sanctioned religious community. If you are in the main public eye, all should be the same. The reason for this is due to the wide spread panic of terrorism. It is sad that a few sour apples ruin it for the rest of the batch

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 Post subject: Re: banning the burqa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:41 pm 
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Everyone should be the same. But everyone should have their rights to practice whatever religion they believe in. Heck I would LOVE for a community without religion but sadly that isnt the case.

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