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 Post subject: Re: Operation "Fast And Furious"
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:54 am 
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1. Yes, we did it to help the iraqi people. Like I said in the process we are getting benefits from it. Like i said we gained an ally in the fight on terrorism. As for us going in for oil that is a lie. It makes no sense. Entering the war in Iraq actually raised oil prices for us. The other members of OPEC became more anti-American. Plus why would we choose Iraq? We get almost all of our oil from Venezuala. Forgive me but I am not seeing your logic here. If we wanted oil we would have to constantly occupy the country, something the UN would not approve of. (then again the UN wouldn't be ableto do squat), by entering Iraq oil prices rose due to OPECs other countries becoming more anti American. Not to mention we haven't gotten a drop of oil from iraq since we invaded.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation "Fast And Furious"
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:57 am 
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Its just your belief, or you would like to believe that. The reason stated for the war on Iraq were weapons of mass destruction. Where are the WMD now? It was just a lie. You cant possibly expect a country to spend 500000 USD every minute, to sustain a war in a region where you get nothing from. Also your view that you are not getting oil from Iraq is short sighted. Its not about getting oil from Iraq. Its about the amount of control that the US has over that industry. Its about the political influence that the US gets to exert in that region. The largest producer of oil in the middle east is what, Saudi Arabia? They have political and military influence over that country. Iraq is the second largest producer and now they have them.

Now you did not get an ally in Iraq. Like I said its a puppet government installed over there. America has huge political influence in that region, and that is why 55 percent or more of food grains imported,for example, are from the US. Similarly, every other american industry will prosper. But at what cost? The nation has been reduced to literally nothing. Millions have died, are homeless. Thousands are arrested and sent abroad to Guantanamo and unnamed countries in extraordinary rendition, and tortured and brutalized, terrorists or not. Your own soldiers are being killed almost every other day. Those that return, obviously will suffer from some form of post traumatic stress, which will again be detrimental to normal functioning.

Now, all that the american govt has been doing till date, is RATIONALIZE the war, but not really deal with actual CAUSES. Since there aren't any. If you are gonna say, we bombed that country, cuz we had to kill Saddam Hussein and save the people there, then you have been misled my friend.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation "Fast And Furious"
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:57 am 
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Iraq is not the second largest member of OPEC in the Middle East. I believe Libya is or at least was at the time we invaded. The uprising over there may have had some effect on their oil production.

No, I already said that there were no WMD. I also think you are confused on us saying we are getting nothing out of the war. I have said that we have gotten alot out of the war: we gained allies in our fight against terrorism in the ME along with other stuff I have said in previous posts. Noone ever does anything for free and with no incentive.

Like I said the US going into Iraq didn't increase their hold over the oil Industry. In fact it weakened it. Initially all of the Muslims were opposed to the US entrance into the ME. Almost every country in OPEC is anti US due to this war and other things we have done except Egypt and Iraq. The other leaders of the other OPEC countries, Chavez for example are quite vocal about it. It wouldn't make sense to win favor from one country at the price of losing favor from 5 or so others. Actually SA isn't really anti US they are more in between.

As for wanting political influence over a country, he'll yeah we want political influence over every country. We want countries to do what would benefit us the most. It is what every country wants so we are no different in that matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation "Fast And Furious"
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:16 am 
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Quote:
Like I said the US going into Iraq didn't increase their hold over the oil Industry. In fact it weakened it. Initially all of the Muslims were opposed to the US entrance into the ME. Almost every country in OPEC is anti US due to this war and other things we have done except Egypt and Iraq. The other leaders of the other OPEC countries, Chavez for example are quite vocal about it. It wouldn't make sense to win favor from one country at the price of losing favor from 5 or so others. Actually SA isn't really anti US they are more in between.

As for wanting political influence over a country, he'll yeah we want political influence over every country. We want countries to do what would benefit us the most. It is what every country wants so we are no different in that matter


Saying the US actually is losing control over the oil industry is a misjudgement on your part. People might be anti-US and what they say might be anti US, but what they have to do, in order to sustain a healthy business is entirely another, and it will always be pro US. It can be pro US, no issues, but not at the cost of peoples lives. Same with political influence, every country wants it. But not every country invades an entire nation killing millions. Like I said you can only rationalize the war with various reasons. However none of them are actual causes.

Also you should understand how the industry works. Its not about directly controlling it and selling or buying oil at prices that are profitable for the US, rather making the market sway in their favor. Every major international event like this one, has an effect on oil prices.

Refer this one for example: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2710597.stm

Here is an excerpt:

Halliburton, an oil services company based in Bush's home-state of Texas, which was formerly run by US Vice-President *CENSORED* Cheney, has already been awarded a contract by the US government to operate in post-war Iraq.[1]
"Reports in the Wall Street Journal suggested the
contracts could be worth as much as $900m."[2]
Haliburton "has a history of government contracts" and will be a "leading beneficiary" of the war on Iraq. Mr Cheney should receive huge financial rewards for the war on Iraq through substantial investments in the corporation he once headed.

Iraq is currently the world's second largest source of oil, but the majority of subterranean oil reserves have never been tapped. After the war, when US oil corporations have fully developed the oil industry's potential, Iraq is expected to become the largest single supply of oil on Earth.
"The new oilfields, when developed, could produce up
to eight million barrels a day within a few years - thus
rivalling Saudi Arabia, the present kingpin of oil."[3]
The world's largest oil corporations are lining-up to exploit what could be the world's greatest supply of oil, and the US government has ensured that companies owned and heavily invested in by America are first in the queue.[4]

And the source:

http://www.thedebate.org/thedebate/iraq.asp

And if you want further reading:

http://www.bakerinstitute.org/publicati ... 072611.pdf

Like I said War is an industry.

Edit: I love how Cheney's name became CENSORED Cheney :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Operation "Fast And Furious"
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:56 am 
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If you are interested, watch this documentary:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6117324045

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 Post subject: Re: Operation "Fast And Furious"
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:20 pm 
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http://civilliberty.about.com/od/internationalhumanrights/p/saddam_hussein.htm

Read this and the other sites detailing Saddam Husseins Reign of Terror and tell me, honestly tell me that we should not have overthrown this tyrant and dictator. Just see what he did to his own people.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation "Fast And Furious"
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:35 pm 
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I have seen videos of what he did to his own people. For example, he used to put a plastic explosive in a persons pocket, blind fold them, and detonate it. People in the senate who were deemed enemy of the state, solely because they opposed his regime, were named, taken out to the yard, and shot immediately, without them even having time to say good bye to their families. All these are inhuman and condemnable. But however that DOES NOT justify, a war. A war where far more people are killed, far more people are rendered homeless, people are named terrorists with absolutely no proof and tortured. Overthrowing Saddam was a result of the war, not a cause or a reason for the war. The humanitarian angle has been brought up simply to divert attention from the most important thing - the war was based upon a lie.

Saddam was a ruthless dictator, but not a religious fanatic. That has been confirmed by CIA officials who worked in that region. Watch that video, there is a statement that details this fact. Most of these websites that write about Saddam being a religious fanatic or oppressing religion are fake. They are propaganda machinery used by the pro war forces. I once saw a program on Nat Geo, called Operation Shock and Awe. That was the invasion of Iraq. The program showed atrocious video footages of bombings, and cited how "precise" they were. Infact, they told a story of a certain "mohammed" who hid in his basement, as bombs rained all around him. For some reason the makers of the television program, expected people to not cringe at the content of that program, when in reality, destruction justified in that way can only be called war propaganda. That is when I lost respect for channels like Fox History, Nat Geo and Discovery. Pure propaganda tools.

I am sure your intentions are good, when you say Saddam has to be removed and a democratic government installed. But that wasn't what really happened. What happened was a genocide and an illegal war, based upon a lie, not just to Americans, but to the whole world, simply for financial and political gain. Which is what is despicable about this whole thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation "Fast And Furious"
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:53 pm 
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Dude, Saddam comited mass genocide to his own people. War has casualties. Every war does. Yes we went into the war on a lie however the benefits for the Iraqi people and the benefits for the US far outweigh the costs of the war. Saddam was dictator for life. His reign of terror could have gone on for, would have gone on for. Much longer then the war and the casualties from that would have risen much higher then the casualties of war.

You also left out why they didn't participate in the Olympics. If an athlete lost in the olympics Uday, Saddams son would torture and kill the athletes.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation "Fast And Furious"
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:37 pm 
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Am I hearing you right? You are saying that the Iraqi people are actually benefiting from this war? Man, you have been seriously brainwashed or you are just defending US foreign policy, which in reality is a joke. Saddam might have been the worst individual in the whole world. He might have tortured and killed his own people if they protested against him. But what the US and allies did was far worse. You cannot simply say, in war people die. Yes people do die in wars. That is why wars are NOT ALRIGHT. Especially wars based on lies.

Noone profited from the Iraq wars. Not the american public, not the american govt, not the soldiers who fought there, not the Iraqi people who are now "free". The only ones to profit from this whole thing are the corporations. Certain individuals like Cheney who has stakes in these corporations. Its why the war was waged and you are missing the whole point. You think Baghdad is paradise city, where the grass is green and the girls are pretty :D ? Its far from it. Its bombed to *CENSORED*, people dont have homes, sanitation facilities, money, food, clothing, clean water.

Check this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chXjCtky ... re=related

Look at the condition of the US troops there. Shocking. You will see how these corporations have been war profiteering, a crime for which back in the days of WW2, people were hanged!!.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCNiMyEw17Q

Go through the 6 parts in this documentary with video footages and then tell me the Iraqi civilians have benefited from this war.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation "Fast And Furious"
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:42 pm 
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GerberBaby1 wrote:
Iraq is not the second largest member of OPEC in the Middle East. I believe Libya is or at least was at the time we invaded. The uprising over there may have had some effect on their oil production.

Just correcting a fact, in comparison to other contries in the middle east Libya has no oil :P

How I know?
I were there 2 weeks ago, and got lectured about what exports they have.. and the internet.

In the middle east (and the world) Saudi arabia got the most, Iran got the second most, then United Arab Emirates then Iraq.

Enjoy and continue your discussions :)

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