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 Post subject: Re: ABORTION
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:30 am 
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Maximillian wrote:
mrducky wrote:
God is nature, so why would I believe in the Greek gods? My thoughts are indeed my own. I choose to or not to follow what God intends for me. Perhaps he wants me to marry a girl. That is His plan. But, because of free will, I have the decision to not marry at all. Of course God can exist with free will. I won't even go into the whole Mormon thing.

mere illusion, god created you and made his plan before you, and knows whatever alterations you would make, any thought you think were already thought of before by god and by creating you, those thoughts are his. you have no choice in the matter, if god foresaw you marrying that girl, he created you to marry that girl with full knowingness that you would. mormons are the more up to date version.

in short, abortions are part of gods plan, dont interfere.


~~~~~~~~~~~~

I did NOT start the God debate. That was you, my friend. People pray because they ask God for grace, or mercy, or for whatever. God can change His agenda. It's like asking your boss if he would give you a raise or second chance. God does decide who lives and dies. It is because of our abuse of free will that we murder. The first borns of Egypt was not the entire world, such as the flood. The Egypt deal was because the Pharaoh would not let the Hebrews free. The Pharaoh did have a first born son. God planned this because of the evil abuse the Pharaoh used with his free will as king of Egypt.

"i probably shouldnt be saying this because i know you would slam into me on this issue but let me bring god into the debate."
see the post before i posted the images. you brought it in, i made sure that this "god card" gets mowed down. that isnt a quote, its just my broken memory, excuse it if the words are wrong but the idea remains.


~~~~~~~~~~~~

I didn't complain. It would be nice, but I didn't complain.
you noted complained that the church has "NO SAY WHATSOEVER". i merely noted the constitution was created purposely for that
that isnt a quote, its just my broken memory, excuse it if the words are wrong but the idea remains.




??? Am I hearing that the Catholic church was kind to someone? There is this thing called forgiveness. The depression did come from the abortion.
your point being? before you mentioned how there is a correlation between abortion and depression. CONTRADICTION.

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 Post subject: Re: ABORTION
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:02 pm 
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mrducky wrote:
ill play the "attack the god" card in face up attack mode.


This is the exact quote. Not a broken memory. You did bring this in.
mrducky wrote:
mrducky wrote:


mere illusion, god created you and made his plan before you, and knows whatever alterations you would make, any thought you think were already thought of before by god and by creating you, those thoughts are his. you have no choice in the matter, if god foresaw you marrying that girl, he created you to marry that girl with full knowingness that you would. mormons are the more up to date version.

in short, abortions are part of gods plan, dont interfere.


Yes, God does know every alteration that I could do. He does know every event. Yes, He could stop me. But it is because that He gave us free will that we have the choice to not listen or follow. The Mormons are a topic I am not willing to discuss.
Man made abortions are not part of God's plan.

~~~~~~~~~~~~




~~~~~~~~~~~~


you noted complained that the church has "NO SAY WHATSOEVER". i merely noted the constitution was created purposely for that
that isnt a quote, its just my broken memory, excuse it if the words are wrong but the idea remains.



When I said the Church doesn't have a say, it was a fact, not a complaint.





your point being? before you mentioned how there is a correlation between abortion and depression. CONTRADICTION.
[/quote]

What? ??? I'm not sure what your saying.


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 Post subject: Re: ABORTION
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:31 am 
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This is the exact quote. Not a broken memory. You did bring this in.
so i did, so i did, it was because you kept refering to nature as a different word for god.

Yes, God does know every alteration that I could do. He does know every event. Yes, He could stop me. But it is because that He gave us free will that we have the choice to not listen or follow. The Mormons are a topic I am not willing to discuss.
Man made abortions are not part of God's plan.

he wont stop you as your action was predetermined, he created you with such a mind set resulting in the eventual choice being made.
he created a woman, knowing full well when creating her that she would not abort later as that was how she was created and how he saw the future. we could choose to listen or not listen, but with an abrahamic god, that choice was made for us before we were born.

just as god PURPOSELY created the zygote, allowed it to split, form cells, form the shape of a very early fetus then abort it naturally in an unfortunate miscarriage. an abrahamic god made the choices for the cells to divide incorrectly and resulted in a self termination of the fetus


When I said the Church doesn't have a say, it was a fact, not a complaint.
mmhmm

What? ??? I'm not sure what your saying.
you mentioned a correlation between abortion and depression citing that the lady in the roe vs wade case suffered from depression. this was later proved untrue, i cbs getting the site again, but it cited that depression from abortion usually only occurs when it is forced or pressured from family/friends.

alright, back to abortion.
prove that those cells are human life.
it is not murder if you do not extinguish a life. stab a dead body however much times as you can, you cannot kill it.

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 Post subject: Re: ABORTION
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:27 pm 
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I think the first few paragraphs speak for themselves.

http://www.prolife.com/life_begins.html


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 Post subject: Re: ABORTION
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:36 pm 
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Maximillian wrote:
I think the first few paragraphs speak for themselves.

http://www.prolife.com/life_begins.html


i must commend you on your use of link

i must chide you for using a link starting with www.prolife.com

before addressing your link, i take this moment to mention that the pill RU486 can now be freely accessed in victoria. its use was blocked by tony abbot with no reason given, the reason most assume is that he did it on religious grounds as he is a roman catholic. doing such a subjective personal limitation of freedom while in a place of power is oppression. this is especially true when he didnt consult anyone and made the decision by himself.

anyways.
Fritz Baumgartner
the first thing i do is verify the standing of the author.

i could be wrong but he seems to be an "expert" in the field of hyperhydrosis
http://www.curesweatypalms.com/
thats right, his speciality field lies with sweat. while i could continue the ad hominem attacks, i dont have credentials so ill lay off a bit, and just note that this is not his area of expertise, rather he is flouting that he is a doctor and is just expressing opinion.

http://hyperhidrosiscare.com/Curriculum_Vitae.htm

he is well educated, but again, i stress that such an essay was merely opinion.

lets begin, a short introduce proclaiming his contention that it starts at impregnation. a zygote.
he then begins attacks on views taken by literally no one i could find on google (life begins at the umbilical chord) (life begins when zygote rests on womb wall and fuses)
then he begins the age of anti abortion tactic of comparing abortion to the holocaust, this is demeaning to survivors of the holocaust.
then he rambles about ancient greek teachings, christian values, holocaust, christian values, straw man argument, then is goes off the tangent and brings forth a really stupid nazi case and then finally.
1/3 of the way in he declares "We must conclude that human lives are sacred from the moment of conception"

and from there, i gave up, it is long and it uses too many strawman arguments an occasional slippery slope and all in all, portrays pro choice like nazis.
and yet it claims to make a point.

perhaps i missed it, but in the first 1/3 of the essay, NOT ONCE did he give legitimacy for the fact that it is life and not a different set of DNA in a cell.
after barely mentioning that, he just presents a case to christians that "this is the christian way" despite abortion not getting much of a mention in the bible and when it is mentioned, it is in the parts written by man and not quotations taken from jesus.

sorry, but you need to feed me something better then that for a read, something where it is actually worth reading to the bottom. something that challenges throughout rather the plea on religious grounds and uses 'nazi's are bad' tactics.

-one and only, duckeh.

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 Post subject: Re: ABORTION
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:39 am 
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If I can not use a pro life link, then you must not be allowed to use a Family Planning, or Planned Parenthood web link either.

http://www.wellness.com/dir/1969463/vas ... gartner-md

Here it states that he is a vascular surgeon. If he is a sweat doctor, he is also a general doctor. From what I read at least. His opinion is a professional opinion. You also have the opinion that conception does not equal life.

I used the link for the first paragraph or so. In that the male 23 chromosomes and female 23 chromosomes make a unique, human chromosome of 46.

Here's another link.
http://www.allaboutpopularissues.org/wh ... in-faq.htm
Ignore the Christ part at the bottom. It gives some good facts.

If you don't like that, I've got one more.

http://www.westchesterinstitute.net/ind ... Itemid=113

Enjoy.


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 Post subject: Re: ABORTION
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:08 am 
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Maximillian wrote:
If I can not use a pro life link, then you must not be allowed to use a Family Planning, or Planned Parenthood web link either.

http://www.wellness.com/dir/1969463/vas ... gartner-md

im just saying, using a link that obviously ONLY presents one case isnt good.
as i said, congratz on using a link.


Here it states that he is a vascular surgeon. If he is a sweat doctor, he is also a general doctor. From what I read at least. His opinion is a professional opinion. You also have the opinion that conception does not equal life.

I used the link for the first paragraph or so. In that the male 23 chromosomes and female 23 chromosomes make a unique, human chromosome of 46.

and my argument is that that still doesnt make life, it is a unique bunch of stem cells with 46 chromosomes.

Here's another link.
http://www.allaboutpopularissues.org/wh ... in-faq.htm
Ignore the Christ part at the bottom. It gives some good facts.

i dont "ignore" the parts, they presented it, it is open for criticism.
Quote:
But the fertilized egg has shown its autonomy in survival outside the mother's body, and has further shown its autonomy implanted into another woman. The fertilized egg does not take on the surrogate mother's characteristics, but develops according to its own DNA make up.

lets see it live without an umbilical chord. again, no actual science showing that it is life rather then a bunch of cells. and since when do prominent doctors call a zygote (conception) a baby?
fetus would have been slightly acceptable. embryo alright. zygote correct.
it contains a tonnes of inaccuracies ie. .... means the fetus can feel pain. .... finally at 8 weeks it is called a fetus.
again, you cannot kill that which has no life. this is all still opinion.

If you don't like that, I've got one more.

http://www.westchesterinstitute.net/ind ... Itemid=113

this one is alright, but i cant read it right now. tis long.
Enjoy.

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 Post subject: Re: ABORTION
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:03 pm 
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Thank you for the congratulations. I still stress that some of your links as well only give one view point.
The 46 unique chromosomes are 46 human chromosomes.

The fertilized egg already begins the process of becoming human. Creating its own features.
Is there any scientific proof that this isn't life?

So I could have made the mistake of posting something that an atheist might refuse. My bad.

I'll just wait for the response to the second link.


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 Post subject: Re: ABORTION
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:42 am 
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Maximillian wrote:
Thank you for the congratulations. I still stress that some of your links as well only give one view point.
The 46 unique chromosomes are 46 human chromosomes.
LUL WHAT? 46 chromosomes are found everywhere in the body apart from only certain cells, everything else has them "human chromosomes" i only beg to question what makes it alive.

The fertilized egg already begins the process of becoming human. Creating its own features.
actually not yet, it divides until it reaches 256 or 512 cells then the cells beginning to specialize and become unique, until then, its just a bunch of cells.

Is there any scientific proof that this isn't life?
nope, thats why i keep asking the question, what makes that bundle of cells, life?

So I could have made the mistake of posting something that an atheist might refuse. My bad.
i gave reasons for why i didnt accept that bias stuff. no esteemed doctor would call a zygote a baby unless taken out of context or bias is clouding their words. at which point it is not expert opinion but rather merely opinion, your words hold the same amount of weight as theirs. it goes, zygote -> embryo -> fetus -> baby -> toddler -> child -> adolescent -> adult -> old fart -> ashes.
an old fart can be an adult or they can be ashes, but you cant call them children.
a child can be a toddler or an adolescant, but not an embryo.
to call a zygote a baby shows gross negligence on their part. if they are quotemining then of course im gonna ignore them


I'll just wait for the response to the second link.
mmhmm wait till friday.


read through some essays here.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abortion.htm

that is a good site :3

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 Post subject: Re: ABORTION
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:29 pm 
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I haven't read through all of it, but it is a good site so far. But what are you saying? That, we are both wrong, are both right, or both right and wrong. Or even, we will never quite understand who is right or wrong? Because the site says that no consensus can ever be achieved and that what we're doing is a complete waste of time.


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