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 Post subject: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:53 am 
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all those who think we are just a quimical rection let me ask you something.

what mind is? hahaha I am specting thousands of stupid arguments, but watch this
even if you can explain that then tell me what an atom is? what energy is?

the most clever cienthyst can´t explain properly, well some of them but tell me then wher did they come from? what is the origin of pure potential field?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn-OUSw_ZBU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yM2LEyA ... re=related

well, after watch this, you can be called a scienthist ok? understand?

Now, all those who thinks DNA just appear by chemical reaction what so ever, you should know this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKLlNiNG ... re=related

Isaac Newton built an exact replica of our solar sistem, a mecanical sistem who "IMITATES" the natural solar sistem cicles.

One of his partners came one day and ask him "wow isaac, who built this machine?" and he answer -noone-

-But how? not possible it was done by someone, you create it with your intelligence I am sure isn´t it?

-I just told you it was done by itself what is so hard to understand?

-I can´t belive you, you are lying to me.

-NO!!! The one who lies is you, because you can´t belive this simple machine was made out of nowhere but you tell all the world this universe so complex and coordinated, so big and harmonious; you tell everyone this marvelous creation was made by noone, YOU are lying, Not me.

Then, if you are not smarter than Newton I don´t care what you think except if you sincerly understand this universal point of you. (then I can help)

What about Einstein?
He studied a book called Bhagavad-Gita his hole life wich contains only 700 verses, was written more than 5100 years ago, it is just a little book, but it remains intact, not a word was changed in 5100 years. he gets relativity from there.

Have you guys ever read it? hahaha, I bet you don´t.

God is not a matter of belief, but a matter of knoledge and consiousness, inform yourselves and then talk. But anyway, if you want to argue, I will be here. there are too many points of disscution, but I am tired to read how confuse are both, the atheists and belivers also.

Dr. Emmanuel Coeto from IPN México
Traumatology and research.


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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:48 am 
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hey :)
we alreaddy got a topic who are almost the same (religion vs sciense), do you mind if i merge your into it? to keep all discussions in 1 topic? :)
viewtopic.php?f=112&t=1878

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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:39 pm 
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nah, leave it as it is. If you merge them ill feel inclined to read all the previously made arguments.


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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:45 pm 
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I'll leave it here :)
Let the discussion begin! :D

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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:05 pm 
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well I am neutral to this argument , I dont believe one way or another nor do I care, but I feel the need to bring the following to the table:
"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time." -Bertrand Russell

/discuss

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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:47 am 
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[I'm an atheist]

I'll reply to the OP first:

You say that atheists lie to themselves when they say that God did not create the universe. However, most only say that God did not create the universe because there is no definitive proof of his existence. After that is said, I usually get the response, "Well, you don' want to believe in God, so he won't reveal himself to you." But the fact is, I was raised religious. I prayed, I went to Temple, yet nothing. I tried to talk to God, yet nothing once again. Then I took my first high school science classes.... and well you can see where we went from there.

My point here is, you say we lie, but you give us atheists no reason to share your beliefs. No, I have not read the Bhagavad-Gita, as I am not a Hindu. Also, if you were trying to allude to the fact that smart men such as Newton and Einstein believed in God as a proving point, then I'm afraid that won't sway me. For one, Newton also believed in alchemy, yet it had no effects on his Laws of Physics. Also, Newton's accomplishments as a scientist do not qualify him as an expert in religious matters. Just because he is qualified in one subject does not make him qualified in all.

As for Einstein, it is still hotly debated as to what kind of God that he actually believed, if any. It is most widely accepted that he believed that Go was only a word synonymous with nature and the material world, such that of Baruch Spinoza, and Enlightenment intellectual.
“I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.” ~ Albert Einstein

Now if you are asking me to tell you where the universe came from if God did not create it, well then I can't answer that. To current science, that fact is unknown. But to assume that because our current scientific knowledge cannot prove something, we should believe that a magical being is the cause of it is completely absurd. Can you prove to me that there are no fairies at the bottom my garden? No, you can't. Just because you cannot disprove a givenidea does NOT imply that it becomes an absolute truth. That is why religious people have "faith". It's because you need faith to believe in God, no facts can prove or disprove its existence.

"The biggest miracle of all is that people believe in miracles." ~ David Hume

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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:53 am 
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Zudamar wrote:
well I am neutral to this argument , I dont believe one way or another nor do I care, but I feel the need to bring the following to the table:
"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time." -Bertrand Russell

/discuss


Sorry for the double post, but the other one was long and I didn't want to clutter the post....

I sort of addressed this in the last post, as it's basically the same principle as the example of the fairies in the garden. This quote is used very often on the atheist side of the argument, and it really makes you think about how absurd the concept of religion would seem to someone who has not experienced the religions of our world.

But the one thing that I always consider when thinking about religion is this:

What makes your God the right God? There have been thousands of different Gods throughout history, so what makes you right? If you are a Christian (not specifically you Zuda, just in general), then you are an atheist in respect to gods such as Thor, Mithra, Ra, Vishnu, ad Osiris, are you not? I just take it one God further.

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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:29 pm 
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Well, actually there are many facts about god existance, he mos cleare and important is shown on Bhagavad-Gita, as the missconseption you argue of many God´s, I have to clear yourself there is only one God, and everithing is conected with in Him.
Doesn´t make sence when god said "I am complete in myself" if you are apart from him.

Spiritual life means acting in agreement with God Laws and that also means spiritual comunism, If you want to know how a perfect civilization is, you can study Chilam Balam of Mayas, ancient Egyptian scripts and Srimad-Bhagavatam. There is the example of how human life can become perfect in touch with divinity. You can´t say there are no facts, you maybe can say you had never study the facts and that will be right, but as far as you study life of a pure devotee, you will understand the presence of God eather understanding Lord Krishna, Buda, Jesus Christ, Pakal Votan and Lord Chaytanya Mahaprabu are mercy manifestations of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

And then you will see the left side of the brain method our sistem was built, has no other purpose in your life but block your chance to reconect yourself with your origin wich is the easier way to manipulate your mind through the media and that separated way of life only creates more and more chaos, selfishness and destruction.

To follow the rules this universe was made, will let you live in peaceand love, only if you follow sincerely by taking shelter on a bonafy Spiritual Maseter like Gurudeva Paramadvati Swami and others.


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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:36 pm 
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emmanuel wrote:
Well, actually there are many facts about god existance, he mos cleare and important is shown on Bhagavad-Gita, as the missconseption you argue of many God´s, I have to clear yourself there is only one God, and everithing is conected with in Him.
Doesn´t make sence when god said "I am complete in myself" if you are apart from him.


No, there are no facts that prove god's existence. If there were, it wouldn't be said that a religious person has "faith". If you have these facts, please publish them so that they can be peer reviewed.... You would make a lot of people, like Ray Comfort, extremely happy.

Quote:
Spiritual life means acting in agreement with God Laws and that also means spiritual comunism, If you want to know how a perfect civilization is, you can study Chilam Balam of Mayas, ancient Egyptian scripts and Srimad-Bhagavatam. There is the example of how human life can become perfect in touch with divinity. You can´t say there are no facts, you maybe can say you had never study the facts and that will be right, but as far as you study life of a pure devotee, you will understand the presence of God eather understanding Lord Krishna, Buda, Jesus Christ, Pakal Votan and Lord Chaytanya Mahaprabu are mercy manifestations of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.


They are many examples of what we would think a perfect society would be like, and I have read a few of them. However, each religion has separate laws to follow and different ideas on what such a perfect society would be composed of. Now some might say, world peace, no illnesses, no death.... but how could we know? We live in such a dysfunctional society, that those are the only things that we consider. Everything must to come to, by one way or another, to make room for new life. The only thing that we ever got from the idea of a Utopian society is communism.

And yes, I can say that there are no facts. There has never been once been a miracle that happened in front of more than about 10 sane people. Then, through my interpretation, you say that all Gods that there have ever been are merely the same one God, just manifested in different ways and to different people. If this is so, then such a God is clearly not so intelligent. The greatest proof that there could ever be for the existence of God is if every culture, no matter what they were separated by, believed in the same God, with the same rules.

Quote:
And then you will see the left side of the brain method our sistem was built, has no other purpose in your life but block your chance to reconect yourself with your origin wich is the easier way to manipulate your mind through the media and that separated way of life only creates more and more chaos, selfishness and destruction.

To follow the rules this universe was made, will let you live in peaceand love, only if you follow sincerely by taking shelter on a bonafy Spiritual Maseter like Gurudeva Paramadvati Swami and others.


To say that the only reason that the left side of our brains exists is to impede our "chance to reconnect yourself with your origin". Well then why would God have made us that way? Since you obviously don't know this... the left side of your brain is your logical, rational, and mathematical side. The reason it would stop you from believing in God is because it requires you to have proof that something exists for you to acknowledge its existence. To say that it only causes chaos and selfishness is just irrational. The left side of our brains has allowed to cure disease, expand our life expectancy, and has even allowed to leave this world. About 1/3 of the earth's population is given clean water through 1 system, thought up by a scientist. You are horribly ignorant to say that the left side of the brain only deludes us.

As for putting my faith in God... I've done that before. I have IBS, and whenever I used to be in pain, I would pray for God to help me. I would ask him what I could do to gain his help and support, but found no answers. I refuse to put my faith in something that refuses to even allow to know whether or not it exists.

I'm sorry if I misunderstand some of what you said, it seems like English is not your first language.

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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:40 pm 
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My dear brother, you should consider to read Bhagavad-Gita before keep talking, that´s actually the prove God Exist and also Jesus is, what is the difficult to understand?

Then, most religions have different practices, because they distortion the original path, but religion means Re-connect so in the case the religion you practice do not re-connect you with God, then you can´t call it religion, in fact are just a few in this world who really understand and experiment love for God wich means only a few practice religion, all else just belive but people do not wan´t to follow a path to purification. people just want to enjoy their senses like animals and speculate, wasting their time on nothing.
Doesn´t mean that if I jump down from a building I will flote because I am Catholic or Musulman and you will fall because you are Indian or Cristian, NO!! We both fall because are atached to the same laws. Cause and effect, so If you really honesty ask God for answers and support, now that they are comming in your help, why you refuse to take them?

This world is temporal, and all related to this world also is, but Bhagavad (the one who posess all opulence) Gita (song) or "the song of God always exist, even before humanity because it is transendental knoledge other fact is that those 700 verses pass throug more than 5000 years of changes and still intact, but any mundane poet or musitian of that time exist now.

I know what the left brain side is for, but supressing the right side wich is intuition, creativity, FAITH, etc.. isn´t also the answer, If God give us 2 emispheres is because He wants we use them both = )

Ah and I speak spanish if you are able to.


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