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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:05 pm 
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empirebattles.com wrote:
Your statement of intollerance is completely ignorant.

You are putting ALL people who are Christians into 1 big group...
Tollerance is not having to believe it. Tolerance is accepting that it is there, and still being able to live your own life.
I hate noobs... but i tolerate them, because it is just a fact of life. Just the same as other's beliefs.
No... we dont have to believe everyone's faith, but we do have to tolerate them... live our life with them around us.

One thing you keep claiming, is that the old-testament laws, the story of the jews, and that all the stores of that time are models that christians must claim to live by. There is a reason that the jews and the Christians are a separate religion...

You speak of intollerance, yet you refuse to believe ANYTHING that accepts any form of religion.

That is what we call a hypocrite:)


You are right that intolerance is to endure even though someone doesn't believe in the same values as you. The religion however teaches it. I go back to the Old Testament time and time again because it's in the CATHOLIC AND CHRISTIAN BIBLE!

If you weren't supposed to believe in it why was it written? The FUNDAMENTALS of Christianity are in there! If I'm going to sit here and debate religion then I will look to the fundamentals first. The fundamentals of Christianity are the Old Testament. While the New Testament is a lighter side, that proves nothing if the Old Testament is still accepted and taught. What you say only proves that Judaism is WORSE, not that Christianity is any better. XD There are passages throughout the Old Testament which speak of killing people because they don't believe in the same religion. There are passages in the Qu'ran about killing people because they don't believe in the same religion. Jesus was KILLED because of Intolerance! The fundamentals of Judaism told them to react to Jesus in that way and KILL him. The same fundamentals that Christianity holds for no apparent reason.

To say I'm intolerant? XD This is a debate, I'm arguing my point am I not? I don't force my beliefs on anyone else as they have to me multiple times in my life. I keep religion out of talking with people, I don't care if they believe in it, but I have right to point out that it's dangerous do I not? Religion in itself is dangerous and has resulted in billions of people dieing over stupid wars waged over intolerance and greed when the Bible speaks out against it. You say I'm contradictory, but look at History. Time and time again, wars over intolerance happen and people die because they believe they have the right to impose themselves over others in name of Religion. Look at the war we're in now. People of the Muslim faith took their religion literally word for word to the dot and because of that they have been brainwashed into thinking that they must kill everyone who doesn't believe in them. Radicals.

Look at the Crusades. CHILDREN were sent to Jerusalem to DIE.

It happens time and time again, and yet we sit here and speak about how religion isn't intolerant? I'm not calling the people within the religion intolerant. Lol. No. I'm calling the religion itself a contradictory mess of intolerance and fantasies that have proven time and time again to only get people killed.

You don't have to have religion to uphold hope, morals, or have a direction in life. Choose for yourself. Do what you think is right for once, by your thinking. Like me, I intend to become a Petroleum Engineer and travel the world. I'll help others with the success that I will have. I don't believe in a religion yet I intend to uphold my hope and my morals for this world to be a better place than the chaos and confusion that it is now.

I'm not saying to just sit there and destroy Religion all at once. People need to make their OWN decision to stop on their own. And they are. The number of Atheists and Agnostics increase daily. Some more radical than others in their belief of tearing down religions. But how, Empire, Can you sit there and act like you don't know how destructive the Bible is. How for the most part the teachings might be good, but the bad teachings ruin it for most people? It helped civilizations start, and I believe that it was necessary, like how Santa Claus was necessary to tell children during Christmas. But that's all it is. Children who don't know any better.

Would Jesus approve to families forcing their kids to take part in their religion? Kids don't know better. They shouldn't be targeted to be part of a religion if they don't understand it. Every person in the Christian faith has NO right to call themselves a Christian if they've yet to think for themselves, and to question for themselves.

Btw.. You never answered my last 2 questions:

Why are the Gods described in the Old Testament and the New Testament so different?

and

Why do Christians avoid/leave out parts of the Old Testament when teaching it in their faith. ( Personally, I never heard the story or the Caananites until I read it myself. )

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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:12 am 
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Because of the new covenant... the FOUNDATION of Christianity. The new testament is under new laws and new rules... The old testament was before the salvation of Jesus Christ. This is why the religious leaders were so unable to accept Christ... he didn't preach the old testament, but he brought around a new line of thinking.
After he died, it was no loner just God. It is now God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit... which is why i'm trying to clarify that Christianity is not based on the everything in the Old Testament.
The problem is, what is chosen to be kept from teh old testament (such as the 10 commandments), is chosen by religious leaders... and those choices are what separates different parts of Christianity. The old testament is the history behind what leads to the choices of the new. It highlights the people of which God spoke to, and it also includes the history. Why is the history included? I dont know... i'm not God... i didn't say to put it there.

So... i say again... Christianity is not based completely on the laws of the od testament, but rather the new covenant through Christ... thus CHTISTianity.



I have a question for you... what exactly dont you believe? You keep talking that the ideals that christians preach are wrong, hypocritical, intolerant, etc etc, but those are all variable from religion to religion.
What rubbed you so wrong that you struggle so hard to believe any of it?

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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:58 am 
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[For empirebattles; The verse you're looking for is this

Mt 5:17 (NIV):
Quote:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

]

@Scorcher - The uses of a belief or set of beliefs by people throughout time has no effect on the truth of the belief.

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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:43 am 
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lol... that is what i'm looking for in what sense? To prove that we are told to uphold the old testament? Or that the new testament is telling us the old is gone?

That verse is referring to the Old testament. ("Law and the Prophets" was often referring to the old testament 'holy scriptures' throughout all of the book of Matthew, which were the laws and the prophecies given) He has not come to abolish the old testament, or the laws and prophecies laid down, but to fulfill them. To Live life how the laws say, and to fulfill the prophecies to mark him as the messiah.
He does not say that WE must fulfill them.

This verse is also what makes it controversial as to whether we are supposed to follow the old testament or not. See the next line:
Quote:
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished


If you read that, it would be as if he is saying that everyone should continue to follow the old laws until everything is accomplished/finished.
This, however, is often linked with the crucifixion, where he speaks "It is finished/accomplished" before he dies. And then after his resurrection, he establishes the new covenant, sending down the holy spirit as a comforter.
For those religions who chose not to believe that Jesus was the Christ, and the savior, that phrase and the new covenant means nothing, thus, many times the old testament is upheld. However, in christian religions(most), the crucifixion and new covenant mark a time of new laws set down by Christ.

Verses such as that, when looking at them out of context, or in-context with other ideas in-play, is what has lead to many different styles of religions.

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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:30 pm 
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lol... that is what i'm looking for in what sense? To prove that we are told to uphold the old testament? Or that the new testament is telling us the old is gone?


You were talking about the old testament's laws, and why you do not follow them to the letter as jews.

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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:18 pm 
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empirebattles.com wrote:
Because of the new covenant... the FOUNDATION of Christianity. The new testament is under new laws and new rules... The old testament was before the salvation of Jesus Christ. This is why the religious leaders were so unable to accept Christ... he didn't preach the old testament, but he brought around a new line of thinking.
After he died, it was no loner just God. It is now God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit... which is why i'm trying to clarify that Christianity is not based on the everything in the Old Testament.
The problem is, what is chosen to be kept from teh old testament (such as the 10 commandments), is chosen by religious leaders... and those choices are what separates different parts of Christianity. The old testament is the history behind what leads to the choices of the new. It highlights the people of which God spoke to, and it also includes the history. Why is the history included? I dont know... i'm not God... i didn't say to put it there.

So... i say again... Christianity is not based completely on the laws of the od testament, but rather the new covenant through Christ... thus CHTISTianity.



I have a question for you... what exactly dont you believe? You keep talking that the ideals that christians preach are wrong, hypocritical, intolerant, etc etc, but those are all variable from religion to religion.
What rubbed you so wrong that you struggle so hard to believe any of it?


The religion I talk has nothing to do with the debate. Merely that Christianity is one of the easiest to point out since they believe in the Old Testament and New Testament despite major contradictions. I can pick apart Hinduism, Buddhism, and other religions, but by far Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are the most violent. I cannot support teachings of violence.

So basically, what you're saying is that Jesus denied the Old Testament, despite it being completely about God, the father. To me that sounds like the Left hand is fighting the Right hand. God, the father teaches throughout the Old Testament that people should uphold the Ten Commandments, but then forces people to break those ten commandments. God, the son teaches that there's more to the Ten Commandments than what is written, he teaches people to love others. So why do the Father and the Son differ so vastly?

To believe in the Holy Trinity is to believe that the Father Son and Spirit are all of the same entity. Correct? Then why does God continue to contradict, not only his teachings, but himself as a whole? Did God slaughter people in the Old Testament as a guide of what not to do? If so, it shows God as he believes in the end justifying the means.

However, The Son teaches the end means nothing unless the means to the end are purely good. Do you see the confusion in these teachings? In fact, these teachings have been over and over again confused over and resulted in bloody wars involving many many people dieing.

I don't support violence in the name of ANY deity, be it the Christian God, Obviously now the Jewish God as you have said is quite different, the Muslim God, the Hindu Gods, or any other God that people believe in.

In fact, you're an Atheist, whether you accept it or not. I'm an Atheist that's taken it 1 God further.

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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:57 pm 
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no... i am not saying that Christ came to fight God... i am saying that Christ came to show that the old laws were no longer needed...
I did not say that Jesus denied the Old testament. The verse that i pointed out states that he does NOT come to remove the Old Laws, but to Fulfill them... To fulfill the prophecies, and live by the laws that were placed, and then continued to say that those laws would not depart from the lands (would remain valid), until all was accomplished. The crucifixion marked the 'accomplishment'.... obviously, you didn't read what i wrote.


Quote:
So basically, what you're saying is that Jesus denied the Old Testament, despite it being completely about God, the father. To me that sounds like the Left hand is fighting the Right hand. God, the father teaches throughout the Old Testament that people should uphold the Ten Commandments, but then forces people to break those ten commandments. God, the son teaches that there's more to the Ten Commandments than what is written, he teaches people to love others. So why do the Father and the Son differ so vastly?

The old testament had wars... yes... but WHY was each war waged? Because the opposing nation challenged Gods sovereign holiness is violated. Many times, this was due to attacks on his holy people, the Israelite's. Everything where God killed was due to people violating his righteousness. We often see God get angry beforehand. God made us in HIS image. The difference between our anger and his, is that he gets angry when people do not give the proper respect, or strait up disrespect.

Quote:
To believe in the Holy Trinity is to believe that the Father Son and Spirit are all of the same entity. Correct? Then why does God continue to contradict, not only his teachings, but himself as a whole? Did God slaughter people in the Old Testament as a guide of what not to do? If so, it shows God as he believes in the end justifying the means.

However, The Son teaches the end means nothing unless the means to the end are purely good. Do you see the confusion in these teachings? In fact, these teachings have been over and over again confused over and resulted in bloody wars involving many many people dieing.


The trinity is what confuses so many people, because they complicate it. The trinity is one, and 3. All in one. In my opinion, the best way to look at it, is not as 3 separate people or parts, but rather the different sides of God. There is the Judge and wrathful which is God the Father, the Teacher and example, God the Son, and the comforter and interpreter, God the Spirit. Why must He show himself as 3 parts? I dont know... most likely because it is a way for humans to better understand God, and to become closer. God is God... he can be mad, he can be sad, he can have emotions, similar to the way we do.... but his emotions are of a more pure level. (I do not have the exact examples of his emotions memorized... but i know that it is mentioned frequently). Everyone here has multiple sides to themselves as well... I can be angry, and ticked off... i can also be calm and diplomatic, and i can be gentle and comforting... I can respond in any of those ways to a situation.
God himself has even chosen to be merciful. Countless times in the Old Testament stories, he gives a city several chances to repent, before he has them destroyed. Any wars that are waged, were waged because the people of the opposing nation would refuse to stop threatening the sovereignty of God. I mean... we dont have every detail of each story of every war that was waged... we CANT know why the war was started, and why they would rebel against God, or even HOW they did it...
Out of curiosity, when exactly did God have a nation killed because he just felt like killing them?

Quote:
In fact, you're an Atheist, whether you accept it or not. I'm an Atheist that's taken it 1 God further.


I believe in God, Christ, and the Holy spirit, according to our doctrine... and thus i am not an atheist.

Mariam-Webster Dictionary wrote:

Atheism
a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
b : the doctrine that there is no deity


No... if you believe that there IS a god, you are not atheist... you are just ignorant of the so-called facts you are arguing.

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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:26 pm 
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empirebattles.com wrote:
Quote:
In fact, you're an Atheist, whether you accept it or not. I'm an Atheist that's taken it 1 God further.


I believe in God, Christ, and the Holy spirit, according to our doctrine... and thus i am not an atheist.

Mariam-Webster Dictionary wrote:

Atheism
a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
b : the doctrine that there is no deity


No... if you believe that there IS a god, you are not atheist... you are just ignorant of the so-called facts you are arguing.


He is actually right. You don't believe in Allah, or Thor, or Mithras, or even the Flying Spaghetti Monster. That makes you an atheist in respect to those gods. While your doctrine tells you not to believe in those other gods, that doesn't make the question of their existence any less valid from a logical standpoint. Atheism means against theism. While what we consider atheists don't believe in any form of god or deity, you reject thousands of deities. Why? Because your deity says to do so.

Basically, you believe that Christianity is the most correct religion because you were raised a Christian. Because your doctrine says to only believe in your god, you have a solid disbelief of all other gods. Therefore, you are a Christian, yet an atheist to all other gods.

Just out of curiosity, would you mind telling me what sect of Protestantism you follow? I can definitely tell that you're not Catholic.....

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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:35 pm 
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I'm pentecostal. In the denomination of the Church of God.


In that respect, EVERYONE is atheist... thus the argument has no weight.... claiming relative atheism, means that everyone is on that same level, thus there is no comparison between the same level, but only to those who believe in NO god

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 Post subject: Re: For all atheists (science was wrong) god exist!! = D
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:49 pm 
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what exactly does pentecostal believe in?

I'm Church of Christ, btw

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