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 Post subject: Re: religious right to discriminate.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:42 pm 
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mrducky wrote:
Zhester wrote:
mrducky wrote:
I'm gonna stop the quote since it's getting ridiculously huge (and you're putting your replies in the wrong places).

thats why i love it, trying to set a record!! sorry late reply, couldnt be stuffed coming here for a while ;)
btw, using this colour to try and avoid confusion which is unlikely to happen :D

I'll make one thing clear to you. I'm not a Christian/Catholic/Jew/Orthodox/whatever (just forced to learn about it in school). I'm a Muslim, and the reason I'm arguing that they should be allowed to discriminate is because if I was forced to break my religion's law, I wouldn't be happy and neither would any other Muslim be. You wouldn't like to be forced to break your religion's rules, would you?

my religion... my religion... hmmm being secular (atheist) my laws would be the common law. so let me see... i need to break the law in order to uphold the law... WOW :D

besides, sharia law at its peak isnt exactly that much better then levictus or jewish "traditions/laws"


So if you lived in a Muslim country, you'd believe in God since that is the common law? That doesn't sound very secular.

I don't live under the Sharia law since I am in England, but I know it isn't meant to be pleasant.


well, being brought up muslim, being under a theocracy, yeah, it will be like the dark ages where everyone was christian. and my point wasnt that you dont live under sharia law, i stated that muslims live under sharia law and it isnt much better then levictus.

nope, if i live in a muslim state with sharia law, i would pay the extra taxes to ensure i would be protected by the state before GTFO out as soon as possible.

Would that work in Iran?

appeasing them until i can get out? yes, yes it will.

The passing is talking about hypocrisy actually. So unless the Catholics are engaged in sodomy all the time, they can judge homosexuals. Keyword in that password; 'You hypocrite'.

I'm not doing the Old Testament away, otherwise I wouldn't believe that the 10 Commandments are real, but it is the oldest part of the Bible, there is no doubt a lot of it has been changed and the best way to interpret it is judging which were traditional rules and which were ones God actually assigned to the human race. I always thought the best way to do so was to compare which of the rules the Old and New Testament agreed on (i.e. homosexuality) because both Testaments are important and it makes sense to do that, no?

nope, because it is supposedly god inspired.
you have no right to assume one part is correct and another isnt. whats to say that the original 10 laws werent opinion? and if age of the law is what is important, greek mythology? pagan law? aboriginal religions of the rainbow snake?
there is no tradition of FIND A HOMOSEXUAL. STONE SAID HOMOSEXUAL TO DEATH. it is law. gods appointed execution. the style and the sentence may be gruesome but meh... thats your problem if you hold that god commanded.


Again, depends on what you believe in. If you think the Bible is just mythology with pre-science laws which are reasoned without the knowledge we have in this day and age. If you are a literalist however, and believe every single word in the Bible to be true (rare nowadays), then yes, you'd stone the homosexuals. You'd also drink poison from a snake and expect to survive. Both stupid things as the educated people in this world know.

but even if you arent a literalist, if that is the word of god, it seems to be gods will to begin some suffering to minorities. if you dont hold the bible as the word of god then why give it weight at all? from this perspective there are 3 kinds of people. those that feel that it is an overrated fictional novel (me), those that feel that it is the inerrant word of god (fundies) and those that lie to themselves hypocritically because the god presented isnt palatable enough for them so they ignore or disregard parts.

I have said before, the Old and New Testament are both important to Christians, and just because the 10 Commandments were shown to the Jews, it doesn't mean that Christians are not supposed to follow it. That passage where God guarantees the accuracy of the Bible was most definitely written by other humans... Why would God, perfect as he is, contradict himself so many times in one book? Plus, I'm sure God inspired the writers of the Bible, but what about the translators? If you've played any Asian MMORPG translated for the American market, you can see how easily errors are made in even the simplest of sentences. Who's to say such errors were made here?

who is to say that the original 10 commandments have kept their meaning?

Well, the Qu'ran actually says it has been changed by humans, but the list in the Qu'ran is almost the same. Three Holy texts holding similar lists can't be too far from the truth but it still depends on what you believe in.

3 holy texts denoting 3 different cultures in 2 seperate areas over the course of several millenia. the Quran is probably the one that took the most out of the previous religions then there is the bible that took out first 5 chapters from judaism then finally there is the original unpalatable levictus laws and old goat herding people smoking weed, i mean talking to bushes. sorry, but i wouldnt put my trust in that to tell the truth

that a cave dwelling man met an angel who flew him through heaven on a one winged horse from jereusalem?, after killing some things and waging war, he then entered relations with more then 10 women including a 6/7 year old girl? the 3 holy texts describe different gods from different time periods.
the first god primarily was there to annoy moses, boss him around, was vindictive and smiteyful. smite smite.
2nd one came as jesus along with other prophets. more cheerier then smite smite.
3rd is the one that muhammad talked with.
they have some things in common but generally delve into things unique to the people.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/q ... /long.html
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual ... in_animals
<3 skeptics annotated
quran states that it is unnatural, IMO, from that evidence, it happens plenty in nature.
so as i said, the only basis that homosexuality is bad is because the book says homosexuality is bad. there is no reasoning, no logic just, the writers were homophobic. now if you follow the book, you should begin hunting witches (wiccans/pagans that are female)


Muhammad never lived in a cave, he used to meditate alone for weeks every year in one, what horse, it's not religious law to marry 10 women, it's tradition, same with marrying a 9 year old girl, Muslims aren't obligated to do so and no one does that anymore anyway and because they were written at different times, they all talk about different Gods?
I assume Jews do not include the New Testament in their preachings because the Jews tried to kill Jesus, God's supposed son, and why would you preach about something that is harmful to your religion?
The Qu'ran notes Christianity and Judaism, and even says that a pious Christian or Jew who has not read or heard the story of the Qu'ran will go to heaven. If the Qu'ran was about a different God, I highly doubt it would include that sentence.

Okay, homosexuality happens in the animal kingdom, but what about humans? The Qu'ran could simply be implying it is not natural in humans.


"Muhammad never lived in a cave, he used to meditate alone for weeks every year in one"
that sounds like living in a cave to me...
"it's not religious law to marry 10 women, it's tradition"
actually it was necessary, islam is meant to mean peace, but at the same time, it allowed for war. husbands would die, but their wives need support. by having polygamy, survivors can look after the women at home.
"I assume Jews do not include the New Testament in their preachings because the Jews tried to kill Jesus,"
Romans killed jesus because he was a dissenter, Jew's just didnt like him a lot because he claimed to be the messiah and most didnt exactly believe he is. Judaism - Torah. why wont jews teach about the Quran? it belongs to a seperate religion.
" If the Qu'ran was about a different God, I highly doubt it would include that sentence."
whats the whole shiny thing about infidels then? those that dont follow islam? last i heard, fatahs/jihads (holy wars) can be fought against them. and they have been fought against them.

and homosexuality is natural in humans, people have been discriminated against because they stood up for what they felt was them.


The 10 Commandments may say nothing about homosexuality, but both Testaments do, which does make me think that this is not a traditional rule rather one genuinely inspired by God. By the way, you say incest as if it is the most disgusting thing in the world... It's not something that favours me, but in my family, some of my cousins have married other cousins. They are different human beings, and just because they have the same grandfather, it doesn't mean it's extremely wrong.

cousins=perfectly legal, even today
i say meh, if they wish to.
daughters+fathers, brothers+sisters disturbs me.
look to adam and eve, noahs family, lot and his 2 daughters. etc... there is a reverberating message of god wanting humans to fornicate with siblings and attempt to eff up the genetic line even more.
as i have said, just because 2 dusty books have somewhat similiar sentences doesnt mean it is a god inspired message. its either none or all. which has god? would a god knowingly let a bunch of nubs taint and corrupt? either none or all. up to you. you dont have much reason behind picking and choosing what sounds palatable. (bible supports an eye for an eye stance, murderers/self defense/anywhere where someone dies. the other person should be executed. traditionally this is done by stoning although floggings are acceptable too...)


Adam and Eve weren't siblings and Noah's family had no choice otherwise the human race would die there and then or are you not familiar with the story?
Would God allow there to be atheists? Yes he would, so why wouldn't there be nubs who taint and corrupt the original texts of the Bible? Not to mention, it's very hard to translate something as long as the Bible completely without mistakes (like about the betrayel of Jesus, where the original texts actually said 'handed over').

adam and eve werent siblings but their offspring were. brothers and sisters is incest. if the bible is corrupted, again, is it now worthless? it is no longer the word of god, but rather, the word of man.

while adam and eve might not have been siblings, their children were.
if god had an idea of what incest does to genes, he would have ensured Noah have a bigger family, 50 pairs is all that is needed for enough genetic diversity. a mere 100 people. rather then brothers, sisters and cousins of noah. if god could be bothered magically teleporting koalas and penguins and tyrannosaurus rex and sumertran tigers to the boat, im sure he could have made the story plausible by having enough genetic variations so the story made sense.
but it seems more like a bunch of men who wrote it unknowing of the repercussions.
i remember God supporting Job (is it? or was it Lot, 3 letter names confuse me) family, blessing it. did i mention he got drunk and impregnated both his daughters?


Incest happens in nature, it has pros and cons. While it may mess up the genetic traits of a family, it can also fix them, not to mention it can keep a whole species alive. Not that it matters, because the Bible forbids incest; " 'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere." - Leviticus 18:9.

There is more than just siblings incest, it's all in one chapter; Leviticus 18, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV
(in R.E., got bored so started reading Leviticus and came across this... there was not much else for fun. :()

It was Lot who "impregnated" his 2 daughters, but if you knew the story, it says that his 2 daughters intoxicated their father through wine and had sex with him, the eldest the first night, the younger the second. Why did they do this? To preserve the family's bloodline. "He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up. " - Genesis 19:33. So it's hardly Lot's fault.


Wait? incest fixes problems? please state how. Joseph Fritzl is waiting.
actually if the number of breeding pairs falls too low, said species is doomed for extinction as genetic failures through incest will 'stack' in their offspring.
bible also forbids the eating of shellfish
Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. 10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: 11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. 12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
w0o0o0o0o0o0o scary god commands thee, DROP THY SHRIMP.
http://godhatesshrimp.com/

alright... thanks for fixing it up, Lot and Job, completely different but the 3 letter names throw me off.
Lot manages to get completely boozed 2 days in a row and still perform sexually adequate. so basically he knocked himself out and was raped by his daughters so they could continue a bloodline even though god decided to not tell them that female blood lines work too which later royal families would find out when a load of incest between cousins occurs from the Deus Rex line aka. uncle Jesus line from James.



Time to end the quote, and I may have forgotten about this. Sorry.

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 Post subject: Re: religious right to discriminate.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:43 am 
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As far as I am aware the main public enemy of gays is Christians right? This is America, land of diversity, supposedly land of the free, and religious tolerance right? Somehow things always tip in Christians favors...much be gods will right? Or how about the fact that its just a mobs ruling*majority*. Well let me ask you all this. Point to the scripture where it says "THY SHALL FORCE THY GAYS TO STOP THEIR ACTS AND FORCE MY IDEAS UPON THEM."

No infact i was under the impression of things suppose to be done in a loving manor. I think you should just back the heck off, look its not your life, who cares what other people do? If you think they will burn for it...so what...let 'em burn. I'm sure they think the same about you sometimes. I'm not gay, i'm 100% into girls...i'm sorry guys i just can't even see why your remotely attracted to each other. It must be something I cant understand. Is being gay right? I have no idea but i do know one thing. We are suppose to live in harmony and care for one another. Love is a way of life. Not...if u dont do what i want I'm going to hate you. If your religions are all right, all of you gay hating people are going to burn anyways, so sweet irony right?

Hate makes the world go around just as much as love does. Its up to you to decide which way you want it to turn.

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 Post subject: Re: religious right to discriminate.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:50 am 
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sharpshot233 wrote:
Point to the scripture where it says "THY SHALL FORCE THY GAYS TO STOP THEIR ACTS AND FORCE MY IDEAS UPON THEM."


it is a number of passages, that when taken together, can (not does) mean the above, at least in the mind of the translators / editors...

i believe works like this:

1) love thy neighbor

2) in loving your neighbor (not in a carnal way, cos that is fornication), you should do all that you can do to help them.

3) it is classed as 'help' if you try to stop them burning in the fiery pits of hell.

4) if your neighbor doesnt believe in God, they are going to hell.

5) ergo, God says to convert them, or else.

6) any suffering they undergo in this world is much less than that in the afterlife, if they die unconverted and/or a sinner

7) find somebody who you dont think comes up to scratch in the 'believing in the right god, the right way' department, and do whatever takes your fancy, long as you can claim that it is gods will, and that they'll thank you for it in heaven (assuming they make it there).
****

oh, and one other thing... one of the most commonly misquited bits in the whole Bible is the one about killing... :-P

is says "thou shalt not murder" not "thou shalt not kill". killing is fine (i.e. self defense, eating meat, executing criminals etc), just not murdering.

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 Post subject: Re: religious right to discriminate.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:45 am 
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ok let me first state that i think that what u say is pretty dead on in most cases.

But i also want to point out i am not a bible hugger.

And lastly, its all up to perspective. Your right, as long as u say its gods will, and can support it with the bible - you are doing gods work and its justified by believers. But that doesnt mean its right morally. Hmm if the bible is correct, the front row seats in hell have almost every followers name on them.

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 Post subject: Re: religious right to discriminate.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:51 am 
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sharpshot233 wrote:
But that doesnt mean its right morally.


have a look at this http://battledawn.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=112&t=1547 and we can discuss comparative morality in that thread... :D

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 Post subject: Re: religious right to discriminate.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:22 am 
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If you read that topic i am already there.

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 Post subject: Re: religious right to discriminate.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:55 pm 
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All i'm saying its a persons choice to be gay, I would never do it, but honestly if its not your life, (atleast in America) you shouldn't have a say over something like that. And being mad at people for following their faith its practically ridiculous because sometimes the world is mad at you for following yours. Its not your life, and if you really care that much to press ideas onto someone else because it will save them...save them the trouble and fix your own life first. Your obviously too busy worrying about others to focus on your own path. In other words, shut up.....

(This is to no one in general)

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