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 Post subject: Re: Palestine gaining statehood
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:44 am 
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If this conversation is continued, please be sure to refrain from petty namecalling for me please. I understand this is a heated topic, but in order to have any good discussion on the matter, cooler heads must prevail.

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Palestine gaining statehood
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:07 am 
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I apologize forthright for not reading every word of the posts above me before weighing in my 2 cents, causing some of you to repeat yourselves obviously.

First of all, Hi ducky, I always enjoy discussing things with you, granted that we almost always disagree.

Great talking points, but I'm afraid both of you have missed the biggest issue surrounding the land. That is BOTH the Jews and the Muslims consider Jerusalem as their God-given land. Unless suddenly 1000s of years of religious fervor is to somehow disappear, the land will always be contested.

At this point, what matters who owns what in the region? One party will never be satisfied until the other is completely annihilated. The other party will never be satisfied unless 'The Promised Land' is theirs alone to govern.

Forget about how/why we're in this issue, as it's completely irrelevant. Eventually this would've happened anyways, no matter if it were British Imperialism or the Jews themselves consolidating and forcing the matter. A bit of both happened, but why bother? To them it's THEIR GOD-GIVEN RIGHT. They believe that their Deity has given them that land, to not strive for it, to not take it would be against everything their religion has taught them.

To the Muslims, it's their God-given right to destroy the Jews.

Want proof?

Torah: On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates - the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites."

Which they then proceeded to slaughter all of those people.

Quran: Ignominy shall be their portion [the Jews'] wheresoever they are found... They have incurred anger from their Lord, and wretchedness is laid upon them... because they disbelieve the revelations of Allah and slew the Prophets wrongfully... because they were rebellious and used to transgress. [Surah 111, v. 112]

And thou wilt find them [the Jews] the greediest of mankind....[Surah 11, v. 96]

Evil is that for which they sell their souls... For disbelievers is a terrible doom.[Surah II, v. 90]

Taste ye [Jews] the punishment of burning.[Surah III, v. 18 1]

I could go on with quotes. The point being that both religions will inherently hate each other.


Outside of acquisition of The Promised Land, it seems the Jews don't wish to push matters much further, if at all (very smart considering how blatantly outnumbered they are)

In this case, I would say the prospect of displacing people is a lesser evil than the extermination of a religious group/race.

Your solution is saying that the Jews should leave the Land that they've been taught to die for, in place of a religious group hell-bent on their destruction.

Let's be honest, both religions are in dire need of a reform. However, the reform the Muslims require is of much greater importance. Please read the Quran and tell me that it is a religion of peace. I would say that a book instructing its followers that everyone needs to be given the ultimatum: 'Join our religion or die' and talks about how all other systems of government and religion are evil and need to be destroyed is a complete fallacy. Not only that, but because the order of the book it's these exact passages that are SUPPOSED to be followed. At least the Christians reformed and tried to become less corrupt and less about killing others. Islam as it stands is so primordial and destructive that the very idea that it has not been reformed on a major scale is quite repulsive.

I'd be more inclined to support a religion claiming a small bit of land as theirs over a religion that supports all-out genocide of non-believers.

(Note: I do not hate Muslims, I think some can lead successful lives. The fact that their religion and structure is still pointing out that the messages of genocide are supposed to still be followed is ridiculous. Don't believe me? Study Islam. The more peaceful Muslims are the more ignorant ones, or listen to somewhat reformed preachers.)

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 Post subject: Re: Palestine gaining statehood
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:44 pm 
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Just a response to a few select points....

Quote:
But they, their parents and the generations of people before them had lived there.


So what if they lived there? This doesnt mean anything. Jews lived in for generations in various countries, they were chased out as soon as Israel was created in retaliation. What about them? Do they claim their "right to return"?

Quote:
This is exactly the kind of situation I dont want in the world, unfortunately, current policies and actions actually encourage rather than deter this behaviour. You dont want to breed hate, you dont want to breed the next gen of killers by your actions. And yet, that is exactly what Israel is doing.


Dude, you are from China, and you live in Australia. Countries that rarely see or experience terrorism. Your altruistic suggestion doesnt work with terrorists in reality. You have to understand its not for survival they are fighting, they use terrorism as a extension of their politics. Such things will never disappear whether or not you "breed" hate or whatever.

Just look at Pakistan and India - 2 countries formed out of the same land, with people sharing a lot of history and culture. You must have heard 26/11 attacks in India. You know what the terrorists were told by their handlers? They were told 1 Jew= 50 Indians, and 1 American = 10 Indians. That is the price they put on life. And that is the respect they have for life in general. And these were terrorists that shared no history, culture or animosity with Jews. They were Pakistanis. Their only reasons to hate Jews? Cuz they are Muslims.

With these terrorists you do not negotiate. You kill them where you see them. That is the only thing that will work. If your country suffered cross border terrorism for decades, only then you will get it.

Quote:
1. Stop the illegal settlements.


It is not illegal. The land is disputed. However, I agree with the core of that statement. Israel shouldnt add insult to injury and should just stop with the settlement building.

Quote:
These illegal settlements arent considered illegal settlements because they are in Israel, they are considered illegal because they encroach on Palestinian land. Of course Im not going to find villages destroyed by Israel on land in Israel owned by Palestinians. WTF are you smoking?


Unless there is a Palestine, there is no Palestinian land dude. And what can be called Palestine today? Gaza ruled by Hamas? Or the West Bank? What IS Palestine?

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 Post subject: Re: Palestine gaining statehood
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:33 am 
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mfreak wrote:
Quote:
But they, their parents and the generations of people before them had lived there.


So what if they lived there? This doesnt mean anything. Jews lived in for generations in various countries, they were chased out as soon as Israel was created in retaliation. What about them? Do they claim their "right to return"?

No, they forfeited that right upon gaining Israeli citizenship. Same applies to Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, or Palestinians with Jordanian citizenship both groups described are now Israelis. Palestinians shouldnt have their neighbourhoods demolished so that Israeli settlements can be built.

Quote:
This is exactly the kind of situation I dont want in the world, unfortunately, current policies and actions actually encourage rather than deter this behaviour. You dont want to breed hate, you dont want to breed the next gen of killers by your actions. And yet, that is exactly what Israel is doing.


... You have to understand its not for survival they are fighting, they use terrorism as a extension of their politics. Such things will never disappear whether or not you "breed" hate or whatever.

...

With these terrorists you do not negotiate. You kill them where you see them. That is the only thing that will work. If your country suffered cross border terrorism for decades, only then you will get it.

They will never disappear is due to human nature, they will disappear because there is no reason for the aggression. By your logic, every single muslim is a terrorist. What makes some of them terrorists and others moderate, normal human beings? Reason. Reason to fight. Reason to kill. Reason to destroy. Reduce the reason they have and you reduce the reason they persuade young impressionable males to become the next gen suicide bomber. There will be pockets of people, who without reason continue their world view through their children, but the significant majority need to be compelled to fight.

All terrorists have reasons for their actions, regardless how superfluous it is.


Quote:
1. Stop the illegal settlements.


It is not illegal. The land is disputed. However, I agree with the core of that statement. Israel shouldnt add insult to injury and should just stop with the settlement building.

Everyone but ~2 countries (US, Israel) considers them illegal (might be more, overwhelming majority is not in favour though). Israel doesnt consider them illegal because the land they intrude upon belongs to an unrecognised nation state. aka. Its only legal on a technicality because Palestine is not a nation recognised by the UN.

Quote:
These illegal settlements arent considered illegal settlements because they are in Israel, they are considered illegal because they encroach on Palestinian land. Of course Im not going to find villages destroyed by Israel on land in Israel owned by Palestinians. WTF are you smoking?


Unless there is a Palestine, there is no Palestinian land dude. And what can be called Palestine today? Gaza ruled by Hamas? Or the West Bank? What IS Palestine?

Are you telling me there is no Palestine?

Gaza and the westbank are distinctly not Israeli, that should be clear to any objective onlookers.


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 Post subject: Re: Palestine gaining statehood
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:35 pm 
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Quote:
No, they forfeited that right upon gaining Israeli citizenship. Same applies to Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, or Palestinians with Jordanian citizenship both groups described are now Israelis. Palestinians shouldnt have their neighbourhoods demolished so that Israeli settlements can be built.


Yeah they forfeited their citizenship to gain Israeli citizenship. similarly, Palestine never existed. Ever. They were ruled by the Ottoman empire and when the Ottoman empire died, they lost their citizenship. The thing is they rejected their state in 1948 by attacking Israel.

Quote:
They will never disappear is due to human nature, they will disappear because there is no reason for the aggression.


Nope. There is always reason for aggression. Thats the whole point. This Pan Islamist ideology is dangerous, it never ceases to exist. Like I said its a political and ideological conflict. Not one for survival. The nutjobs that cause terror also consider themselves culturally, religiouslly and racially superior to non muslims. That forms the basis of their morality when they start fighting other non muslim countries like the US, Israel, India etc.,

Quote:
By your logic, every single muslim is a terrorist. What makes some of them terrorists and others moderate, normal human beings?


Where have I said this? Strawman slippery slope.

Quote:
Reason. Reason to fight. Reason to kill. Reason to destroy. Reduce the reason they have and you reduce the reason they persuade young impressionable males to become the next gen suicide bomber. There will be pockets of people, who without reason continue their world view through their children, but the significant majority need to be compelled to fight.

All terrorists have reasons for their actions, regardless how superfluous it is.


Sure and their reasons are political and ideological. Both tied together. That is why their position is non negotiable. And that is why their fight will never cease. And that is also why terrorism will never cease.

Quote:
Everyone but ~2 countries (US, Israel) considers them illegal (might be more, overwhelming majority is not in favour though). Israel doesnt consider them illegal because the land they intrude upon belongs to an unrecognised nation state. aka. Its only legal on a technicality because Palestine is not a nation recognised by the UN.


UN resolutions eh. Its not illegal to send your forces into a disputed land. Its disputed. Therefore there is a dispute and you are actually fighting it.

Pakistanis argue the same way, that sending troops into Kashmir is not wrong cuz Kashmir is disputed. But the thing is its only Paksitan that disputes it, India considers it an integral part of India based on international law. Hence any Pakistani intrusion is considered illegal and aggressive. Am just pointing that out to show you what "disputed" actually means. Disputed is when 2 parties lay claim to the same area, with that particular piece of land belonging to no one at the time of the conflict. So anyone is free to take it.

However, I do agree with stopping settlements, as I said before. It only adds to the issues. And its inhumane too in a lot of instances.

Quote:
Are you telling me there is no Palestine?

Gaza and the westbank are distinctly not Israeli, that should be clear to any objective onlookers.


Where is Palestine today?

Gaza is ruled by Hamas.

West bank by PLO/PA. Hamas dont like PLO. So they themselves are divided. They dont have any single party or entity representing them. So right now there are 3 states there. One in Gaza, one in Westbank and Israel. So how do you call Gaza and Westbank as palestine? They themselves cant agree on that.

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 Post subject: Re: Palestine gaining statehood
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:39 am 
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mfreak wrote:
Quote:
No, they forfeited that right upon gaining Israeli citizenship. Same applies to Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, or Palestinians with Jordanian citizenship both groups described are now Israelis. Palestinians shouldnt have their neighbourhoods demolished so that Israeli settlements can be built.


Yeah they forfeited their citizenship to gain Israeli citizenship. similarly, Palestine never existed. Ever. They were ruled by the Ottoman empire and when the Ottoman empire died, they lost their citizenship. The thing is they rejected their state in 1948 by attacking Israel.

They rejected the formation of the state of Israel overseen by the British and what the British saw as a convenient solution (no one in Europe seems too fond of the jews, dump the jews away from Europe, problem solved, at least not their problem anymore). Im not sure if you read earlier posts but the Jewish groups in the area were quite subversive to the process as well, they were intent on a Jewish Israel occupying the land there. The government was supposed to be based on population representation and there were many key groups who actively went against the British imposed law and smuggled hundred thousand jews into the area to help ensure that Arabs who lived there had zero say in government. Point out any population, any population that all that would welcome the subversive creation of a nation within their borders, their land, by another nation.

Quote:
They will never disappear is due to human nature, they will disappear because there is no reason for the aggression.


Nope. There is always reason for aggression. Thats the whole point. This Pan Islamist ideology is dangerous, it never ceases to exist. Like I said its a political and ideological conflict. Not one for survival. The nutjobs that cause terror also consider themselves culturally, religiouslly and racially superior to non muslims. That forms the basis of their morality when they start fighting other non muslim countries like the US, Israel, India etc.,

I purposely said they wont disappear and that they will disappear. You mention nut jobs, where do the nut jobs come from? They dont appear magically, society shapes them, genetics shape them, culture shapes them, life shapes them. Its why you can get the occasional nut job like that shooter at the batman premier or you can have a society where nutjobs arent just tolerated, they are revered as freedom fighters. Again, I point to my previous posts regarding Jewish terrorists. They would be considered freedom fighters, defenders of the Jews. Objectively speaking, a fair number of important Jewish militant groups were terrorists. They were nut jobs and it was the society and life at the time that shaped them.

What about settlers on what is objectively speaking considered Palestinian land? The ones on the fringe, the expansionist settlements, they would consider themselves better than the arabs or they wouldnt think right to claim religious right to the land since their ancestors claimed that land. sure enough this breeds and begets hate, this breeds and begets the next gen of terrorists. Uneducated teenage males getting evicted by force from their homes, being told that its Israeli land now. What do you think will happen? That they quietly accept it? No, the voices of Hamas sound more reasonable, the method where Israeli innocents die sounds more reasonable and sure enough you have another terrorist on your hands.


Quote:
By your logic, every single muslim is a terrorist. What makes some of them terrorists and others moderate, normal human beings?


Where have I said this? Strawman slippery slope.

I never said you said it. I notion that your overarching black and white view of terrorists would label everyone a terrorist since you have no border of distinction. You give no reason why other than that they feel superior or something. That isnt a reason why. People feel superior to drug addicts, they dont bomb rehab clinics or clean needle drives. There is a reason and a ideology behind every human being. How they act, how they perceive the ideology is because of an uncountable number of things

Quote:
Reason. Reason to fight. Reason to kill. Reason to destroy. Reduce the reason they have and you reduce the reason they persuade young impressionable males to become the next gen suicide bomber. There will be pockets of people, who without reason continue their world view through their children, but the significant majority need to be compelled to fight.

All terrorists have reasons for their actions, regardless how superfluous it is.


Sure and their reasons are political and ideological. Both tied together. That is why their position is non negotiable. And that is why their fight will never cease. And that is also why terrorism will never cease.

What if I told you that if you removed the physical reasons (settlements), the real reasons, the purely ideological ones hold less sway? I could tell you all kinds of things about the communists, but until they kill your family or destroy your house and destroy all your material goods, you have zero reason to pick a fight with north korea. There are some who will get riled up, who can be persuaded to pick a fight but such a number is negligible compared to the masses when you can show them the thousands of bodies of children. The fight wont end, but you can make it so that the majority see no sense in the fight.

Quote:
Everyone but ~2 countries (US, Israel) considers them illegal (might be more, overwhelming majority is not in favour though). Israel doesnt consider them illegal because the land they intrude upon belongs to an unrecognised nation state. aka. Its only legal on a technicality because Palestine is not a nation recognised by the UN.


UN resolutions eh. Its not illegal to send your forces into a disputed land. Its disputed. Therefore there is a dispute and you are actually fighting it.

Pakistanis argue the same way, that sending troops into Kashmir is not wrong cuz Kashmir is disputed. But the thing is its only Paksitan that disputes it, India considers it an integral part of India based on international law. Hence any Pakistani intrusion is considered illegal and aggressive. Am just pointing that out to show you what "disputed" actually means. Disputed is when 2 parties lay claim to the same area, with that particular piece of land belonging to no one at the time of the conflict. So anyone is free to take it.

However, I do agree with stopping settlements, as I said before. It only adds to the issues. And its inhumane too in a lot of instances.

Then this argument has reached the dead end. No where to go from here. There is a difference between your example and Palestine though. Palestine cant lay claims to any land whatsoever. Pakistan can. Palestine isnt even a state remember? So all that non Israeli land. That can be taken and opposition muffled and suppressed due to legalities (essentially what is happening already with the settlements)

Quote:
Are you telling me there is no Palestine?

Gaza and the westbank are distinctly not Israeli, that should be clear to any objective onlookers.


Where is Palestine today?

Gaza is ruled by Hamas.

West bank by PLO/PA. Hamas dont like PLO. So they themselves are divided. They dont have any single party or entity representing them. So right now there are 3 states there. One in Gaza, one in Westbank and Israel. So how do you call Gaza and Westbank as palestine? They themselves cant agree on that.

Look to Sudan, it was once one country and now two. This happens often enough.

Gaza is Hamas controlled, easily more aggressive of the two. Westbank is PLO controlled objectively more stable and less aggressive. We have 2 nation states, Israel and Palestine, but Palestine is split into 2 states regarding leadership, Gaza and Westbank.


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