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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:11 pm 
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Diazepam wrote:
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Saying "this one era, on this one world, Joe was late to respond" does me no good, and does you no good. This makes it pointless.


Well yes, that would do nobody any good and would be pointless. Surprisingly though that's not what I said.


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As I stated, in recent history, I have found no basis for wrongdoing claims against Joe, and that is the hard evidence I have before me.


And in not so recent history, when I used to play, I have found a large basis for wrongdoing claims against joe, and that is the hard evidence I have before me.

What is the problem with that? The problem is that I am not supplying you with the hard evidence. This is why you do not believe me. You can't just take our word for it without evidence and go by what you see, before going by what we see.

The same goes both ways. Milanos is going by what he has seen. Not what you are telling him you have seen.


Remember though, I don't actually play and don't care if admin Joe does well or not. I just like these kinds of threads.


Yeah well:

Quote:
I remember lots of instances when Joe has been late to respond to messages from me


Pretty much the same thing. You provide no times, not even a month. Just "I remember lots of.." No better than the example I gave.

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Remember though, I don't actually play and don't care if admin Joe does well or not.


You keep saying that as though it should give added credibility to the things you say. No offense, but I do not think that it does or does not, so why bother?

And, I remember not so long ago, where there was a huge thread where we were told that if we did not have HARD evidence against another player, that we should not be making judgements against them. This is you the community who would have it this way. This too goes both ways. It is the same as with admin complaints. It does not matter if I believe you or I do not. Me believing you does not mean that your claim is suddenly or magically substantiated. I never said that it was impossible that Joe had an era once that he performed poorly on. However, that does not mean that his performance now is poor, and what I see now is what I go on, because that is the hard evidence that I have.

Ive had complaints about Simmen, Ive had complaints about Ilona, Ive had complaints about Andrew and Tom as well. Complaints happen. This does not mean that every one of those complaints are tanemount to certain truths. It means that some players do not like them, and may have a poor opinion of them. This does not mean that everything that they claim to be true is suddenly true.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:15 pm 
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Ilona wrote:
[color=#FFFFBF]first of all, we appreciate all opinions and if its about a not so good performance of any admin, you should be always feel free to post it in here as well.
We are always try to improve our service and things like 'admin rating' on all servers should show that as well.


I appreciate that stance much more :)

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Back to this topic, we should face the facts. Fact is, that we as admins should reply / take action if needed within 24 hours. With this, Joe is doing good.


Of course, strictly speaking from the job requirements that is completely true. I would however rather have an admin who doesn't just do what is required but tries to excell, like you do.

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Fact is, that we try to limit abuses due game mechanics. There are only some points left which are not covered. Thats farming and multis. With this Joe is doing fine as well.
Also a fact is, that Joe asked me several times to look up his worlds before he did a ban as we both knew that every ban he would do especially to some nations will cause a riot here in the forum. He was in NO way asked to get a 2nd opinion, he just wanted to do it.
About 'being active' : how many games you play where you'll get a direct and personally reply to your messages within 1 WEEK?
I dont play many games, but for now I didn't find one.


Indeed, but this is in my opinion a quite seperating aspect of BD from other games. Battledawn excels at this, we have admins who are helpful and actually give replies. I believe this is a strength that should not be underestimated, you've always yourself said how you helped many newbs with questions. Interaction like that is what keeps people interested.

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It might be me, and also I am just about to get myself fired :lol: , but getting an admin more active shouldn't be the goal at all.
the goal should be - and for this we need the help of the community - is making a game which doesn't requires any admin actions.



Nooooooo don't get fired :lol: Of course it would be nicer if no admin action was required at all. This however is a game of interaction between players to the extreme and many judgement calls, I do not think there is a way to fix that in the near future. Therefore perhaps in the future we do not need such active admins, but today we still do. As long as we do not yet have a system that makes admins obsolete, I would rather have good and active admins to govern this game.

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For now, we are not anyway near to this goal. And as long as we a far from this, I can see 4 admins on 16 worlds and none of this servers has been without admin activity longer than 24h for the last 6 months.
We become ill, have a RL, join a party, etc etc like everyone else and still its manageable.
Milan, you as (ex-) admin should know how it is and how important every player and his/her opinion is to us. You guys and gals ARE the game.


I as ex-admin know how much it is appreciated if you give a timely and helpful reply, if you do something about the cheaters before they can do too much damage and if you not only send messages from the admin account but actually participate in the community. As I mentioned before I believe Joe is sadly lacking in these aspects :(

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I'd really appreciate when you come up with helpfully suggestions how to solve issues with in-game mechanics so that admin activity is less needed instead of trying to find a more active admin as replacement which shouldn't be the goal.

Cheers,

- Ilona


If I have any ideas for that I'll be sure to suggest them xD

Edit:

Quote:
And, I remember not so long ago, where there was a huge thread where we were told that if we did not have HARD evidence against another player, that we should not be making judgements against them. This is you the community who would have it this way. This too goes both ways. It is the same as with admin complaints. It does not matter if I believe you or I do not. Me believing you does not mean that your claim is suddenly or magically substantiated. I never said that it was impossible that Joe had an era once that he performed poorly on. However, that does not mean that his performance now is poor, and what I see now is what I go on, because that is the hard evidence that I have.


Seth, the only times you find real hard evidence is with IP matches and the likes. If you were to do it the way you just said you would never catch someone for OP farming again, you would have to make Andrew apologize to me, you would be unable to ban farms unless they sent messages ingame to their conquerors saying "Hey man, I'm your farm :)". It's not a realistic way to view it. In many cases you have to make do with circumstantial evidence. In this case, as we can not give hard evidence, circumstantial evidence is all we have. However a large enough collection of circumstantial evidence can be just as convincing as your "hard evidence". Again, are you saying that if 1,000 people posted on here saying that in their experience admin Joe did not respond to their questions quickly enough or did not give them replies, you would still say that there is nothing wrong because there is no hard proof?

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:23 pm 
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Quote:
You keep saying that as though it should give added credibility to the things you say. No offense, but I do not think that it does or does not, so why bother?


I was actually only saying that so I wouldn't be taken too seriously. I'm not complaining and I don't want any action to be taken against Joe as it doesn't effect me. I'm just mentioning that I have had many bad experiences with Joe as an admin, and this is an opinion that I know for a fact is shared by many players of the past. Possibly present, too. But we didn't all take screenshots of everything he did to build up evidence against him...


If he is doing a good job right now, then awesome. I'm happy for those that still play his worlds. I just like butting into threads to add my own thoughts. Otherwise it might aswell just be PM between you and milanos which is quite boring for me. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin (Joe)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:34 pm 
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Thank you milan for removing the obscenities from the screenshots. Upon further thought, however baseless I view those screenshots to be, I will let them stand on one condition. That condition being that you add dates to each one, so that it accurately reflects how long ago they were taken.


As for the 1,000 people thing, again, its not happening. If it were to happen, that would be another story, but only to some extent. Again, you keep talking about a bygone era with no ability to even go back and see what you are talking about. This makes the whole exercise pointless really, even if 1,000 players came in and talked about it, because looking at his recent performance, he is doing fine.


As for Joe's performance in the community, its all about time. And some of us have more flexibility to do such things than others. The fact is that admin does not pay enough to live off of, and in order to do what you seem to expect, that is what we would need. We simply are not rich, and Joe has a family and a day job. He still manages to log in and do worlds while at his day job, but it does not offer the flexibilty to get into the forum and community and babysit chats and threads, nor is Joe being compensated.

Part of my job is to be here in the community. Ilona has other duties that enable her to be here in the community. Simmen is a student and has nothing better to do :lol: We should not persecute Joe just because he does not have that flexability. That is simply not fair.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin (Joe)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:41 pm 
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Seth wrote:
[color=#BF8000]Thank you milan for removing the obscenities from the screenshots. Upon further thought, however baseless I view those screenshots to be, I will let them stand on one condition. That condition being that you add dates to each one, so that it accurately reflects how long ago they were taken.


I can be quite straightforward about that, they all come from March/April 2011. I'll add it into the first post.

Quote:
As for the 1,000 people thing, again, its not happening. If it were to happen, that would be another story, but only to some extent. Again, you keep talking about a bygone era with no ability to even go back and see what you are talking about. This makes the whole exercise pointless really, even if 1,000 players came in and talked about it, because looking at his recent performance, he is doing fine.


I'm not saying it would be 1,000 people from that era, I am talking about the general conditions under which you might change your opinion. From that statement, can I conclude that a large amount of user comments about Joe being a much slower admin in comparison to others can indeed change your opinion?

Quote:
As for Joe's performance in the community, its all about time. And some of us have more flexibility to do such things than others. The fact is that admin does not pay enough to live off of, and in order to do what you seem to expect, that is what we would need. We simply are not rich, and Joe has a family and a day job. He still manages to log in and do worlds while at his day job, but it does not offer the flexibilty to get into the forum and community and babysit chats and threads, nor is Joe being compensated.


Indeed. Which was one of my earlier points, Joe simply does not have the time that others can have. Which is why I said it is nothing personal, but he simply can not be as active as others could be and those others could therefore satisfy the players and the community more than I think Joe currently can.

Quote:
Part of my job is to be here in the community. Ilona has other duties that enable her to be here in the community. Simmen is a student and has nothing better to do :lol: We should not persecute Joe just because he does not have that flexability. That is simply not fair.


I believe that being an admin, it is part of your job to be helpful for the community. And yes, your point with Simmen is a good one. Simmen is a good admin, and he does not have the time difficulties that Joe seems to have. That is why I believe Simmen is more suited for the job of administrator than Joe is. That is, again, nothing personal but simply a matter of where you are in your life and the time you have available. You can call that unfair, but some people are simply better suited than a job for others. If you were to hire an admin now and had the choice between an admin who had the time to be active on a world, answer messages helpfully and be active in the community or an admin who indeed fulfilled his job requirements but did not participate in the community and was both less active and less helpful to players than the first admin, which would you choose?

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin (Joe)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:00 pm 
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The fact of the matter is here, that Joe is doing a good job, and as far as I can see into the past, he has been doing a good job. If alot of players came in and said he was doing a bad job currently, I would give enough benefit of a doubt to check into it. Even when it was just you, I checked into it, and found that he is doing a good job.

If the concern here is that he is doing his job, then I can assure you that from what I have seen, he is.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin (Joe)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:02 pm 
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Seth wrote:
The fact of the matter is here, that Joe is doing a good job, and as far as I can see into the past, he has been doing a good job. If alot of players came in and said he was doing a bad job currently, I would give enough benefit of a doubt to check into it. Even when it was just you, I checked into it, and found that he is doing a good job.

If the concern here is that he is doing his job, then I can assure you that from what I have seen, he is.


I do not doubt that according to the job definitions he is doing his job. You however have not responded to the questions I asked in my last post, even though I think those are quite important questions for this discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin (Joe)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:20 pm 
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The fact is, to answer your question, to think that everyone can keep up insane levels of activity forever is simply unrealistic. Simmen is in a position to be more active now, but that wont last forever.

There was a time when Andrew was able to be insanely active as well, and it didnt last forever.

However, do I think it would be more effective or better for BD to just cycle new people in every time it was not reaslistic for an admin to maintain constant activity all day? I would say no. Because there is more involved in being an admin than just being there. Being good at the job is just as important, and Joe is good at the job. From what I have seen lately, he does a great job. As far as being able to go "above and beyond" with certainty, no one will be able to maintain that without being paid full-time wages, which world admin positions do not. Therefore he must rely on his day job to make ends meet.

And for every person you get in here who agrees with you, I could likely go find someone who agrees with me. Therefore, it boils down to opinion.

In this case, you are indeed being disrespectful and intolerant in all of this by pushing your opinion onto anyone who will listen to you. Do I think we should all be as intolerant as you? NO.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin (Joe)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:36 pm 
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Seth wrote:
The fact is, to answer your question, to think that everyone can keep up insane levels of activity forever is simply unrealistic. Simmen is in a position to be more active now, but that wont last forever.


Simmen has kept it up for what, almost 2 years now? Of course it won't last forever, I never said it would. But that does not mean you should keep admins on forever, simply because they have once been active and "you can not expect anyone to be active forever". I truly think you should have admins that can be active.

Quote:
However, do I think it would be more effective or better for BD to just cycle new people in every time it was not reaslistic for an admin to maintain constant activity all day? I would say no. Because there is more involved in being an admin than just being there. Being good at the job is just as important, and Joe is good at the job. From what I have seen lately, he does a great job. As far as being able to go "above and beyond" with certainty, no one will be able to maintain that without being paid full-time wages, which world admin positions do not. Therefore he must rely on his day job to make ends meet.


You exaggerate my statement by far, Seth. So far it seems you attempt to make a parody out of everything I say by blowing it up into such proportions that it does not sound logical anymore. I do not propose "to just cycle new people in every time it was not reaslistic for an admin to maintain constant activity all day". I do not ask constant activity all day. Where you have gotten that from I do not know. An admin should simply be more active than just logging in twice a day. Joe has been Admin for how long now, 5 years? Being an Admin in my personal opinion is indeed more of a part-time job, it however is a job where it is much more sensible to be able to log on for 3 periods of 1 hour than for 1 period of 30 minutes and 1 period of 3 hours every day. Indeed, I believe this is hard to combine with a full-time job. That is why in my opinion being an admin should be seen as a part time job with all the consequences of it, being that you can't really have it on top of a full-time job.

It is easy to say that no one is able to go above and beyond what is required, but how many times have you seen Joe posting on the forums over the last few years? How active has he been over the last 2 years compared to Simmen, or the last year compared to Ilona?

Quote:
In this case, you are indeed being disrespectful and intolerant in all of this by pushing your opinion onto anyone who will listen to you. Do I think we should all be as intolerant as you? NO.



I am being disrespectful and intolerant. Okay, how am I being disrespectful? I am voicing my opinion to you and others without any flaming, without swearing, without claiming to be the better man here. This is a public forum, I did not know you had forbidden us to voice our opinion, and I do not see how I can possibly push my opinion onto anyone who will listen to me. All I can do is argue my case, people can chose to not even open this thread if they do not want to.

As far as me being intolerant is concerned, come on now Seth. You are the one here who wishes not to tolerate my opinion, as you just so nicely stated. You denounce me as being disrespectful for voicing my opinion, I fail to see how that is tolerant of you.

Because you have not answered this I will just copy it in here again.

Quote:
I believe that being an admin, it is part of your job to be helpful for the community. And yes, your point with Simmen is a good one. Simmen is a good admin, and he does not have the time difficulties that Joe seems to have. That is why I believe Simmen is more suited for the job of administrator than Joe is. That is, again, nothing personal but simply a matter of where you are in your life and the time you have available. You can call that unfair, but some people are simply better suited than a job for others. If you were to hire an admin now and had the choice between an admin who had the time to be active on a world, answer messages helpfully and be active in the community or an admin who indeed fulfilled his job requirements but did not participate in the community and was both less active and less helpful to players than the first admin, which would you choose?


I am certain that when Joe was chosen for this job he was a perfect candidate, however times have changed and so has Joe's time. The last 4 admins that have been hired have been Simmen, me, Ilona, and Tom. Out of those 4, 3 were students. I believe that is because students simply have timetables that are better suited to admining BD, as it is better for an admin to be able to check up on a world several times per day than to log in twice a day and only do stuff once a day.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of an admin (Joe)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:02 pm 
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I agree with u Milan, that a lot has bad experiences with Joe, and that although Joe is doing a very good job with his work, he's quite slower than the other admins due to his lack of time and activity.

But let's look at it again, wat is the problem here? He doesn't have a lot of time, yet he still manage to do his job. I don't think we should have anything to complain much here except that.

So solution? Fire him? No, he's not bad enough to be fired. We'll just need to cut down on his worlds and give him less fast worlds. It would give him better time for his worlds and his lack of activity won't affect much due to the slow worlds.

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