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 Post subject: Re: Gun control?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:35 pm 
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I just watched the video someone with a gun could've easily scared them off they were just a bunch of guys that joined in after they saw another doing it to this poor girl.

One did it and they all joined in.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun control?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:47 am 
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[quote="mfreak"]Homicide can also be related to other types of crime. For example Burglaries, Armed robberies etc., Often times, people dont kill because they are crazy, people kill out of need. Switzerland is a country where everyone has guns, even machine guns. Yet, it has one of the lowest murder rates in the world. Odd? Social issues play a great part in crime.

Demographics play a part yes, but regarding the case of switzerland, i think its their gun culture, namely the fact that almost all gun holders are militia. lacking a military, switzerland has a compulsory militia system in which all men are trained. This training, the education, etc. are more likely for keeping gun crime down and low. Switzerland is an outlier in that all adult males have military training and the lack of standing army means guns are kept at home.

I agree. Thats why I dont support owning sniper rifles, automatic/semi-automatic machine guns etc., These are not even useful for personal protection. However handguns are something I support.

What is the difference between a high caliber pistol or a semi automatic pistol with 10 or 15+ rounds in the magazine with a high powered rifle/semi automatic machine guns?

Naah. They were just goons that took advantage of the girl. They werent armed. As for the link, you have the entirety of it on video. I wont post it here to avoid voyeurism and secondly, to keep with the PG 13 rating of the forums. However, its on youtube. Just type - "Girl molested in public view, India, Guwahati". You will find it there. The whole molestation scene.

Fair enough, i just put in some keywords and i was unable to find it. Should be able to now. Alright, ive found it, when you said goons, i assumed it was a gang, but this case seems to be randoms from a club in india. I guess a gun could have scared them off, but if you carry, they get to carry too. So I obviously pose the question to you, would to point a gun at a mob of 20 men if there was the possibility they could point a gun right back at you?

Also am not saying that everyone should be given guns. There should be a screening process, and a person's financial, educational and criminal backgrounds should be verified. All gun owners should be required to complete a training - just like we test for a driver's license and then get a license to own guns. This isnt difficult or impractical.

financial? educational? Half of the rednecks in the southern states, the ones with the most guns, wouldnt qualify, even if the leave the bar to pass really low.

Of course. But knowing India so well, travelling the 2 miles that they had to, to get there, would have taken atleast 15-20 mins in Indian traffic. So they were late by like 10 mins or so. Max 15. That wouldnt have done any greater good, except for rescuing her earlier and sparing her the extra humiliation. The right way to deal with this is to stop it from happening. By protecting yourself.

No, police can do something called "arrests" im not sure if you know about this but it results in longer term consequences for those being arrested. The longer term consequences would be the greater good. Protect yourself with an APC? With 20mm machine gun mounted on the roof? That would scare the crowd right off. What if the gang comes at your with an APC? no problem, RPG in the glove box. assemble it and fire away. Society wasnt better off in the wild wild west when people armed themselves to protect themselves. Calling shotgun involved not driving but instead carrying a shotgun to protect yourself. Is that the society you want? Everyone armed to the teeth, road rage becomes homicide, alterations are subdued with gunfire, bar fights become shoot outs.

Accidents happen yes. But that doesnt deserve a generalization. There are tons of crimes out there committed against people that are not armed. They can be prevented.

but may result in a more dangerous society, a more wary society, a society where police respond differently due to the threat of the possibility of a gun. a society where paramedics cant enter from 3 blocks out because there was a shooter. Not to mention my ever present point of escalation. a mugging becomes a shoot out.

Murder Rates:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

Check that. Some of the countries at the top, have gun control. The US is homicide rate is more than India, but only by a few spots. But look at Switzerland, that requires everyone to keep a machine gun. They have a very low murder rate. Murder rates and guns dont have a causal relationship.

Switzerland is special remember, they have mandatory militia training and their gun culture is nothing close to the US. The training alone results in a large reduction, coupled with the european high standard of living (not so sure that still exists with the recession and all) they are an outlier. Guns do increase violence though, it is statistically significant, you can open up the US' numbers based on state and sure enough the southern states with their demographics and higher guns per square km is indicative through the murder rate. Also the difference per 100 000 between US and India is the entirety of Australia's or the UK's. That is a significant difference. And India is a relatively dodgy place (i would like to compare to china, but china's is relatively low)

I guess most of these accidents are because of a lack of training/responsible handling. Switzerland requires everyone to join the Army and therefore maybe their citizens are far more educated when it comes to handling guns/gun safety. I guess if we practice that and mandate training and compliance, which can easily be done, as it is done for drivers licenses, we can reduce accident rates.

Really? Conscription? Switzerland is special because it lacks a standing army which allows for a militia. I just cant see how the average gun user would be willing to undergo military levels of training to use their gun. That said, it could be implemented in USA as the constitution is quite adamant in the 2nd amendment that it refers to the right to bear arms as a militia.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun control?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:11 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Gun control?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:08 am 
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Demographics play a part yes, but regarding the case of switzerland, i think its their gun culture, namely the fact that almost all gun holders are militia. lacking a military, switzerland has a compulsory militia system in which all men are trained.


Thats what I said in the last para. They are probably more trained and educated when it comes to gun safety/usage. I have a feeling most in the US have this sense of pride in owning automatic weapons, but lack proper discipline while handling the same. I know there are disciplined folks out there, but you can never be sure. Its exactly why I dont support assault rifles, shotguns, machine guns etc that are supposed to be used in war.

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What is the difference between a high caliber pistol or a semi automatic pistol with 10 or 15+ rounds in the magazine with a high powered rifle/semi automatic machine guns?


You could regulate caliber too. I am no gun expert, but there must be a minimum caliber that maybe able to help people protect themselves, but at the same time wont cause a "militarised" society, so to speak. BTW assault rifles can fire automatic, 30 round magazines that travel greater distances and do more damage. A handgun is not that capable. If there was no difference people would use only handguns in wars, atleast they are smaller and lighter :)

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I guess a gun could have scared them off, but if you carry, they get to carry too. So I obviously pose the question to you, would to point a gun at a mob of 20 men if there was the possibility they could point a gun right back at you?


Hence why I said, regulate who you give guns to. For example, to own a gun, you need to be educated to a certain level and should be of sound mental health. You should have no criminal background. You need to go to a training facility (basically gun ranges) which are already available in the US everywhere, and learn to shoot, learn about safety etc., We could make them take written tests for ensuring they know about gun safety, and we could have practical tests to see if they know how to handle guns, clean them etc., This sounds long winded, but we do this for Driver's licenses. We could also regulate the number of guns per person, at ONE handgun, of a caliber of his/her choice.

So in that particular case, the goons being mostly illiterates, wouldnt have had a gun on them.

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No, police can do something called "arrests" im not sure if you know about this but it results in longer term consequences for those being arrested.


They did arrest them. Am asking, how does it change anything for the girl? It doesnt. She was molested and humiliated. The very incident could have been avoided is my point. If there was a gun in the picture.

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Also the difference per 100 000 between US and India is the entirety of Australia's or the UK's. That is a significant difference


Yeah, but Australia is one of those countries at the very top when it comes to living standards. And population wise Australia is like 55 times smaller than India, while being twice as big. So your population density itself is extremely low. I know there are concentrations of populations, STILL.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun control?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:25 am 
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mfreak wrote:
Thats what I said in the last para. They are probably more trained and educated when it comes to gun safety/usage. I have a feeling most in the US have this sense of pride in owning automatic weapons, but lack proper discipline while handling the same. I know there are disciplined folks out there, but you can never be sure. Its exactly why I dont support assault rifles, shotguns, machine guns etc that are supposed to be used in war.

But you keep going on about how awesome switzerland is, they get to keep assault rifles, machine guns, military weapons.

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What is the difference between a high caliber pistol or a semi automatic pistol with 10 or 15+ rounds in the magazine with a high powered rifle/semi automatic machine guns?


You could regulate caliber too. I am no gun expert, but there must be a minimum caliber that maybe able to help people protect themselves, but at the same time wont cause a "militarised" society, so to speak. BTW assault rifles can fire automatic, 30 round magazines that travel greater distances and do more damage. A handgun is not that capable. If there was no difference people would use only handguns in wars, atleast they are smaller and lighter :)

No such thing, if you want a caliber capable of protecting yourself from other people, you want a caliber capable of causing grievous bodily harm to others. 15 rounds in a semi auto pistol with hollow points. no reloading after each shot. caliber can be small but still incredibly deadly, arguably a small hollow point is worse than a slightly larger non hollow point. A handgun doesnt have range and accuracy compared to a rifle, but they are still plenty capable in dealing damage in... lets say an enclosed theatre.

Hence why I said, regulate who you give guns to. For example, to own a gun, you need to be educated to a certain level and should be of sound mental health. You should have no criminal background. You need to go to a training facility (basically gun ranges) which are already available in the US everywhere, and learn to shoot, learn about safety etc., We could make them take written tests for ensuring they know about gun safety, and we could have practical tests to see if they know how to handle guns, clean them etc., This sounds long winded, but we do this for Driver's licenses. We could also regulate the number of guns per person, at ONE handgun, of a caliber of his/her choice.

So in that particular case, the goons being mostly illiterates, wouldnt have had a gun on them.

What makes you think the goons are illiterates? This is india, not a developing nation. What makes the licensing so high and mighty that it would exclude them but not the girl?

They did arrest them. Am asking, how does it change anything for the girl? It doesnt. She was molested and humiliated. The very incident could have been avoided is my point. If there was a gun in the picture.

It changes nothing for the girl. If one of the goons had a gun in his hand and was forcing her to cooperate at gunpoint, how does it change anything for the girl? If i were standing behind you in line at a shopping centre and stab you in the gut with a spork and you pull a gun on me and shoot me, how does it change anything? the fact you get to shoot me? that spork i stabbed you with was sharpened and slightly rusty. Your gun means nothing. All that matters is the response times of emergency services. such a pedantic point on your behalf.

Yeah, but Australia is one of those countries at the very top when it comes to living standards. And population wise Australia is like 55 times smaller than India, while being twice as big. So your population density itself is extremely low. I know there are concentrations of populations, STILL.

You raise a total of: 0 valid points in that paragraph. Its per 100 000. What you state is all conjecture and fluff (other than the first couple words), try again.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun control?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:38 am 
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But you keep going on about how awesome switzerland is, they get to keep assault rifles, machine guns, military weapons.


I didnt say they were awesome or whatever lol. I meant to point out that guns dont have a causal relationship with crime. Meaning Guns dont CAUSE crime.

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No such thing, if you want a caliber capable of protecting yourself from other people, you want a caliber capable of causing grievous bodily harm to others. 15 rounds in a semi auto pistol with hollow points. no reloading after each shot. caliber can be small but still incredibly deadly, arguably a small hollow point is worse than a slightly larger non hollow point. A handgun doesnt have range and accuracy compared to a rifle, but they are still plenty capable in dealing damage in... lets say an enclosed theatre.


Mass shooting and massacres dont happen often. Its one in a million. The advantages of personal protection offset the disadvantage of something like a mass shooting, that is extremely rare. People getting mugged and robbed are more common occurences.

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What makes you think the goons are illiterates? This is india, not a developing nation. What makes the licensing so high and mighty that it would exclude them but not the girl?


The girl wouldnt have been able to have a gun anyway, honestly. She was underaged. But some one else with a gun could have stopped it. In THAt particular case.

Now being from India I can tell they were just punks with no future just by lookin at them. But generally speaking, yes educated people can also do bad things, I dont deny it. But its far less likely that a person that is educated, has a good job, a good paycheck etc is gonna commit a crime, that too a murder etc., If that happens, then it is a crime yes. But crime will always be an unfortunate part of our societies, with or without guns. Like I said guns dont make people commit crimes.

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It changes nothing for the girl. If one of the goons had a gun in his hand and was forcing her to cooperate at gunpoint, how does it change anything for the girl? If i were standing behind you in line at a shopping centre and stab you in the gut with a spork and you pull a gun on me and shoot me, how does it change anything? the fact you get to shoot me? that spork i stabbed you with was sharpened and slightly rusty. Your gun means nothing. All that matters is the response times of emergency services. such a pedantic point on your behalf.


Again, if you control who you give guns to, then the goons wont have guns on them in the first place.

Secondly, you are talking about jumping me. What about those cases when someone tries to carjack you ? What about those cases when someone tries to break into your home/property? What about those cases when someone tries to rob you in an alley?

Personal experience: I have a friend at office. He was mugged TWICE. Once when he was returning through a dark alley, he was attacked and punched in his face and he had to give them money for them to let him go. Second, his car was stopped and he was stabbed in the hand. Guns can stop these kinds of instances. Ofc you can bring up lots of instances where guns cant be used or wont be useful, but just having guns alone doesnt ensure your safety. You need to ensure that you stay out of trouble too. Guns are and can be a very useful deterrent in many cases.

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You raise a total of: 0 valid points in that paragraph. Its per 100 000. What you state is all conjecture and fluff (other than the first couple words), try again.


What I mean is, there is more social justice in Australia, than in US and India. Therefore, you cant say Australia has less crime because you have less guns. Thats not the case. Australia has less crime, cuz it has higher living standards, more social justice, than the US or India. You repeatedly tie crime rates to guns. In this case statistics dont mean anything, because when you say guns make it easier for people to commit crimes....you talkin about YOURSELF. In reality, pulling the trigger on a person is just as difficult as stabbing him/her. For US. For a criminal it just doesnt make any difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun control?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:53 pm 
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Well some people's reasons for carrying guns are for personal protection. Well if guns were banned from average people carrying, then others would not need guns to defend from guns :)
But of course just banning guns legally would do very little, there would be a lot of major underground circulation.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun control?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:30 pm 
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OMG guns should be only and ONLY buy law inforcement since some ppl are crazy enought to kill innocent civilians and wouldn't it hurt for the ppl to just learn maertial arts,or kung fu,oh even better look for a stick and that's your weapon ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Gun control?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:19 pm 
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Only for law enforcement?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/08/us/califo ... index.html

And read this.

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2012/0 ... 718597.php

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 Post subject: Re: Gun control?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:43 am 
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mfreak wrote:
I didnt say they were awesome or whatever lol. I meant to point out that guns dont have a causal relationship with crime. Meaning Guns dont CAUSE crime.

Thats like saying mafioso dont cause crime in their retirement towns, that is, towns that mafioso like to retire in. The towns have low crime rates as all gangs and trouble makers are scared off, the streets are incredibly safe since the mafia's family (children, parents) walk amongst them and the crime commited there is low since most of the mafia there are merely connections and not doing anything particularly illegal. The town basically becomes a safe haven due the the mafia's influence.

You cant point to an outlier and claim it represents the whole. Guns are heavily correlated for crime, Switzerland is unique in that almost all gun holders are disciplined militia.


Mass shooting and massacres dont happen often. Its one in a million. The advantages of personal protection offset the disadvantage of something like a mass shooting, that is extremely rare. People getting mugged and robbed are more common occurences.

But shoot outs will be more likely to increase, you cannot argue with that. Gun shot wounds will become more prevalent. A leads to B. B leads to C. A loss of a wallet becomes a loss of life as you pull out a gun and get your stupid ass shot and another gun is lost to the black market. Way to turn a mugging into a murder. Remember, criminals will expect to carry a gun and to use force at the slightest twitch if ordinary citizens suddenly arming up. Fantastic combination. Criminals armed and expecting a gun fight who will over react to the slightest wrong movement. I applaud your society. Remember, they will always have the weapon drawn on your first

The girl wouldnt have been able to have a gun anyway, honestly. She was underaged. But some one else with a gun could have stopped it. In THAt particular case.

Now being from India I can tell they were just punks with no future just by lookin at them. But generally speaking, yes educated people can also do bad things, I dont deny it. But its far less likely that a person that is educated, has a good job, a good paycheck etc is gonna commit a crime, that too a murder etc., If that happens, then it is a crime yes. But crime will always be an unfortunate part of our societies, with or without guns. Like I said guns dont make people commit crimes.

herp derp, guns dont commit crimes, people commit crimes. rehash of the old busted argument. I still dont see what makes an educated person want to step up and lose it all while an uneducated person wont step up for his friends/gang and lose nothing. Your filter is flawed. It doesnt disclude the punks from the girl (what if the girl was 18, same argument). Punks with no future are the worst kind of people to encourage a gun friendly society with.

Again, if you control who you give guns to, then the goons wont have guns on them in the first place.

Gun control in USA wont work, you establish a filter right now and nothing will change, the guns just proliferate and go everywhere until you can get a shooter illegally for a weeks paycheck min wage to rob for 5 weeks paycheck min wage. If you look to countries with massive and stringent controls on guns already (Australia for example) you will find that it doesnt disclude the less savoury of the population from obtaining them (bikie gangs for example). This is with a system with more checks and balances, more leaping through hoops, more regulations and more control over guns than what you are proposing. You release and allow guns to the public, be prepared for the public to have guns. While Australia's criminals do have guns, the difficulties in obtaining one really limits what you expect in any standard crime.

Secondly, you are talking about jumping me. What about those cases when someone tries to carjack you ? What about those cases when someone tries to break into your home/property? What about those cases when someone tries to rob you in an alley?

Personal experience: I have a friend at office. He was mugged TWICE. Once when he was returning through a dark alley, he was attacked and punched in his face and he had to give them money for them to let him go. Second, his car was stopped and he was stabbed in the hand. Guns can stop these kinds of instances. Ofc you can bring up lots of instances where guns cant be used or wont be useful, but just having guns alone doesnt ensure your safety. You need to ensure that you stay out of trouble too. Guns are and can be a very useful deterrent in many cases.

Hmmm the car one is iffy, but that alleyway one was a definite gun shot wound to him + mugging or a normal mugging + gun stolen and used for other crimes. Alleyway would have been 2 + people. one on either side of the alley to block escape, drawing a weapon on one might have resulted in them running off, or retalitory gun shot wound after getting quickly mobbed and gun taken. In short, carrying a gun in that situation would have likely been worse since the most likely result would be standard mugging + a gun in the hands of criminals who have shown a willingness to mug and use violence on others.

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You raise a total of: 0 valid points in that paragraph. Its per 100 000. What you state is all conjecture and fluff (other than the first couple words), try again.


What I mean is, there is more social justice in Australia, than in US and India. Therefore, you cant say Australia has less crime because you have less guns. Thats not the case. Australia has less crime, cuz it has higher living standards, more social justice, than the US or India. You repeatedly tie crime rates to guns. In this case statistics dont mean anything, because when you say guns make it easier for people to commit crimes....you talkin about YOURSELF. In reality, pulling the trigger on a person is just as difficult as stabbing him/her. For US. For a criminal it just doesnt make any difference.

I am going to have to heavily disagree with "trigger is just as difficult as stabbing someone" Trigger is detached, its emotional and physical couplings are reduced to a glorified switch. A stabbing on the other hand requires the person to REALLY get in there and be willing to go hand to knife to body. Given the choice of killing someone, gunshot would always be easier than having to slit their throat. always. Given the choice of harming someone, gunshot would be easier than slicing someone, actually, physically running at them or leaping at them and slicing at their body. As for social justice, Latvia ranking higher than USA with a GDP at just a third of USA's makes social inequities are big factor but not the deciding factor. Latvia has 2.5% of the population as gun holders. Australia's is more than that for comparisonwise. (4% roughly). Not drawing any causality lines but Latvia = Relative dump in comparison with many developed countries. Latvia is better than USA at gun control. Latvia experiences lower homicide rate.



Wolowitz wrote:
Only for law enforcement?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/08/us/califo ... index.html

I do not support arming the homeless (I doubt you do). I do support those monsters to be held accountable and the police system overhauled or stringently looked at and fixed due to that incident.

Regarding 2nd link. I would be more worried about the CIA than the FBI. and injustices perpetuated by the FBI pale in comparison to the CIA in international "incidents"

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