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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Continuing from the the last post as i ran out of space

Bringing aid to the palistinians, what a bad bad group, I have actually spoken to him and he has told me how he was treated and lets just say it wasnt very nice. And now im mentioning a bit of religion :o by talking about Jerusalim the bloody city, The israelis in their very holy way are tear gassing and driving palestinians out of different areas of jerusalim every now and then and the houses are then bought by zionists living abroad to be done up and sold on. Nothing more holy than a nice refurbishing, shame it leaves people homeless and temperaroly blind. As for Hamas they are the elected government of Palistine and I am proud to say that while the americans trained the Israelis the IRA(Irish Republican Army) has trained hamas recently in proper guerilla warfare and established connections with the basque so heres my final religious points, if hamas are nothing but religious extremests why are they working with a predominatly catholic army??Simple its because people tend to put aside religious differences when your forced out of your home and treated as second class citizens??Also as far as Judaism and Israel go i always believed that Zionists and jews were like bases and alkaline. Not all Jews are zionist yet all zionists are jews, not all bases are alkaline yet all alkaline are basic so WTF is everyone who speaks out against Israel branded an anti-seminist??Whats the word for discriminating against muslims because i sure as hell want to know. I wish Hamas the best of luck driving the israelis out because as far as i can see its nothing less than an foreign plantation on their soil.......

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:11 pm 
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@CIANOG... well said :) ....

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Or is it the 2009 ceasefire, that was rewarded by about what 1000 rockets or something - yes. Media always highlights the 'bigger stuff'-like palestine firing so many rockets into israel...do they highlight the fact that these rockets are sent after seeing the blood of their own men,seeing them die pointlessly?..do u know how much psychological trauma has been caused and disruption of daily life by the israelis?... almost every single day a person is killed....and i say.. PALESTINE HAS ALL RIGHTS TO FIRE those 1000 rockets....not 1000...even if 5000 rockets are fired, is it enough to satisfy themselves? is it enough for the amount of revenge they should take?..... and what does palestine achieve by firing them?- they sadly only get to kill a maximum of 10 people(which is nothing compared to the amount the isrealis kill) ...but they try and im proud of the hamas and the way they fight... they aren't afraid..they keep pushing israel to the max- despite knowing what little force they have...thats the spirit... and that is the behaviour of those who have seen the blood of their own men......

Secondly, the story about 1000s of years ago you said is complete rubbish. Israelis, left Egypt, and came to Israel.King David ruled over Greater Israel, and then the Romans came in and chased the Jews away. This is what happened. Its not that the Jews betrayed anyone.


Israel does not go into any country killing them. In 2006, the Hezbollah kidnapped 3 soldiers,and fired like 4000 missiles into Israel. So the war against lebanon. Palestine is not even a country. Allies? What allies? You mean the whole of the middle east that has attacked and lost to Israel?

Quote:
.the gazans have their faults as well...but whose fault outweighs?... indeed the israelis.....


Really? You gotta read up on your history. Then we can debate. Simply blaming the ISraelis of being monsters, is ridiculous. The Arabs there have brought this on themselves.

Really?. So you're literally saying that shooting a passer-by innocent kid is being totally humane? wow, u really have a heart :lol: And do you think lebanon is crazy to JUST, ALL OF A SUDDEN fire 4000 rockets into israel?...and do u think all of arabia , egypt , turkey and others are crazy to just pick on israel?.. why do u think all of arabia, africa, most of asia and some countries of europe are against israel??... do u think they are all crazy to just point at one country out of the whole map and blame that country?.. indeed not. This is because, most of the world knows who really is at fault. And if you want to listen to un-biased news-one that is not afraid to portray to the world the actual stuff that happen in secret and in public - watch the news channel called 'Al-jazeera' - or visit their website... The BBC and CNN are afraid to show what really Israel does as israel is their ally ....also, the newly formed israel in 1948 was attacked by not 1, but by so many because all of them were affected by the stuff the israelis did and they knew what havoc the israelis would do if they were given their own state... and there were so many people against it.....and thank hitler for killing about 6 million jews lol...israel being such a small country now, carries out so many secret operations against the arabs and continue to cause havoc......so imagine if those 6 million that hitler killed had lived- they would have betrayed everyone and had half of the world under their rule..lol... its common sense that israel is the cunning bad fox when almost the whole world retaliates israel - that is why they are being chased everywhere from 1000s of years before until now :lol:

Most of your post is just typical of people listening to left wing media that always put Israel in a bad light. In reality you dont take the cultural, historical, religious and political issues into consideration. Research about the past 100 years of Israels history, who has attacked them, why ISrael is in Gaza and West bank. Also you gotta understand that it is not the Israeli-Palestine conflict, it is the Arab-Israeli conflict.


I spoke about 1000s of years back and the treaty was called the 'treaty of hudaibiya' - you think i made that up?..well, go check up on history then ;)..and if u want me to take religious issues into consideration..oh well, i can say alot - but im sure it will not give a vivid picture as people here have different religions and it might lead to quarrels if i begin :D

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:38 pm 
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yes. Media always highlights the 'bigger stuff'-like palestine firing so many rockets into israel...do they highlight the fact that these rockets are sent after seeing the blood of their own men,seeing them die pointlessly?..do u know how much psychological trauma has been caused and disruption of daily life by the israelis?... almost every single day a person is killed....and i say.. PALESTINE HAS ALL RIGHTS TO FIRE those 1000 rockets....not 1000...even if 5000 rockets are fired, is it enough to satisfy themselves? is it enough for the amount of revenge they should take?..... and what does palestine achieve by firing them?- they sadly only get to kill a maximum of 10 people(which is nothing compared to the amount the isrealis kill) ...but they try and im proud of the hamas and the way they fight... they aren't afraid..they keep pushing israel to the max- despite knowing what little force they have...thats the spirit... and that is the behaviour of those who have seen the blood of their own men......


The media never talks about Palestinians firing rockets. It only talks about Israel firing rockets. For example recently they fired 100 missiles or so into Israel. Even from Sinai into south Israel. The psychological trauma has not been caused by Israel. The Palestinians brought it on themselves. After the UN resolution 181, it was the Arabs that attacked Israel. Jews had like 5% of land, and the partition left them with 56%. The Arab nations immediately attacked and Israel defended and beat them all back.

The point is this. When Jews left the death and destruction in Europe after the holocaust, they looked forward to building a country. They looked forward to life. And they invested their everything in it. The Arabs were after death. The death of the Jews. So that is what they are getting and that is what they will get unless they change their ways. The reason why the Hamas kill very less Israelis is because Israel has great air defence. They have bomb shelters etc., The fact that Israel has these defensive measures does not reduce the severity of the attacks. The severity of cross border terrorism. What about those rockets fired at school buses? TARGETING civilians. As for Israeli soldiers shooting people arbitrarily, that's a ridiculous accusation without any basis. Even protesting Palestinians are shot, if at all, with non lethal bullets, and that too when the agitation gets really violent.

Unless and until, they stop attacks, recognize Israel as a legit state, and start peace talks with them, with the PLO leading the talks, nothing will happen. They will continue to suffer. A product of their own actions.

Quote:
arabia , egypt , turkey and others are crazy to just pick on israel?.. why do u think all of arabia, africa, most of asia and some countries of europe are against israel??... do u think they are all crazy to just point at one country out of the whole map and blame that country?.. indeed not. This is because, most of the world knows who really is at fault. A


Who are the Arabs NOT against? They hate just about everybody. Heck they hate each other. They hate the Jews. They hate the Christians. They hate the hindus. They hate Shia or Sunni muslims as the case maybe, whatever they belong to. After world war 2, there were millions of Jewish refugees. Even Arabs some of them, got Israeli citizenship and today all of them have a good standard of living. Even the Arabs. And am sure none of the other Arabs outside of Israel even have the same rights as Arabs in Israel. But why are the Palestinians who are their so called "brothers" for whom they started fighting in the first place, STILL refugees? Why havent they been assimilated and given citizenship and given a proper standard of living?

The answer is simple. Anti-Semitism and hatred of Judaism. You cannot justify rocket attacks on Israel by saying Israel is bombing Palestine. Israel is defending. Palestine is trying to wage war through terror. So you fight terror with terror. You criticize Israel so much. Go to Kashmir in India and see what the Indian army does. They have shoot on suspicion rights there. So if they think you are a terrorist, they will shoot you dead. Its far worse than Palestine. Israel is much more humanitarian than that.

Quote:
As for Hamas they are the elected government of Palistine and I am proud to say that while the americans trained the Israelis the IRA(Irish Republican Army) has trained hamas recently in proper guerilla warfare and established connections with the basque so heres my final religious points, if hamas are nothing but religious extremests why are they working with a predominatly catholic army??Simple its because people tend to put aside religious differences when your forced out of your home and treated as second class citizens??


Israel did not colonize anyone. It was the Arabs that attacked. Israel simply defended. Before 1967, West bank was occupied by Jordan and Gaza by Egypt. Because the Arabs attacked, Israel retaliated and occupied that land in DEFENSE. That is not colonialism. BTW the Hamas is a terrorist group. Elected or not, their charter says this:

The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.

And they are funded predominantly by Iran. They will obviously work with IRA, their anti-semitism is a much stronger feeling than hatred for Irish people or Christianity.

You cant negotiate with such people. Whose only motive is a second holocaust. Therefore I advocate fighting terror with terror. They attack you? Unleash hell. Subdue them. Thats how you get peace with these guys. Otherwise they wont listen or understand. Its brutal, but its necessary.

BTW Zionism is not an evil concept. Zionism is just establishment of Israel. That is not a illegal or a deplorable ideal.

Quote:
I wish Hamas the best of luck driving the israelis out because as far as i can see its nothing less than an foreign plantation on their soil.......


That is what is called anti-semitism. Am not calling you anti-Semitic, but that statement which calls for "driving out the Israelis". Lemme ask you a question - To where? Into the sea? This is why Israel is ferocious. Because when it comes to the Jews everyone will wash their hands off and shrug. Look at all of the middle east. Israel is actually like an oasis in the desert. Like I said, Jews looked forward to life, the Arabs are after death. The death of the Jews. So thats what they get in return. Simple as that.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 5:03 pm 
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the media also doesnt show the amount of stillbirths and dead children on the so-called "borders" of palestine and israel where the palestinian women have to hope they can hold their baby in until the israelis decide to let them through to go to the maternity hospital if they are allowed through at all, it truly sickens me that this isnt stopped.........

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 12:53 am 
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In general the humanitarian crisis you see there is because of the terrorism and subsequent retaliation. The problem is this: Israel wanted to create a modern, powerful and advanced nation, and they did. The Arabs went after death, the death of the Jews. If they had not attacked, concentrated on forming a Palestine, and then peacefully demanded what they felt was theirs, then there wouldn't have been any problem. Their sole aim, is to annihilate Israel. So t hey indulge in terrorism.

When you do this, you can expect stringent security procedures.

Like I said, the larger issue and the actual issue here, is the Arab-Israeli conflict. It has lots of religious and historical issues to it. You cant solve the issue just by criticizing Israeli brutality, cuz that deviates from the real issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 1:29 am 
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mfreak wrote:
In general the humanitarian crisis you see there is because of the terrorism and subsequent retaliation. The problem is this: Israel wanted to create a modern, powerful and advanced nation, and they did. The Arabs went after death, the death of the Jews. If they had not attacked, concentrated on forming a Palestine, and then peacefully demanded what they felt was theirs, then there wouldn't have been any problem. Their sole aim, is to annihilate Israel. So t hey indulge in terrorism.

When you do this, you can expect stringent security procedures.

Like I said, the larger issue and the actual issue here, is the Arab-Israeli conflict. It has lots of religious and historical issues to it. You cant solve the issue just by criticizing Israeli brutality, cuz that deviates from the real issue.

and you also say israel NEVER betrayed anyone. Just quoting ''Five Egyptian soldiers were killed. According to Egypt they were killed by Israeli security forces chasing militants across the Egyptian border, while an Israeli military officer initially said they were killed by a suicide bomber who had fled across the border into Egypt. The five deaths triggered a diplomatic row between Egypt and Israel and led to mass protests outside the Israeli embassy in Cairo.'' . Ok, leave this aside . there is still a controversy on this , but what about the GAZA FLOTILLA raid- where 9 turk activists were killed and many wounded .All activist casualties were caused by gunshots, some of them in point blank range. Turkey and Israel were like brothers to each other until THIS^ happened . And who here betrayed their 'BROTHER'? - israel. And after all this, you call israel the good people who never betrayed anyone?. Also, the flotilla was still in international waters when this attack took place, and before they even got into the vessel , they fired grenades and had helicopters against it. Question is - what the heck is all this? you call that israel being peaceful^?.. nahh. And now turkey is one of israels bitterest enemies who are ready to kill them any moment. Blame goes to , AGAIN - israel :)

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 1:49 am 
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sraeli security forces chasing militants across the Egyptian border,


Thats not the full story now is it? A group of militants attacked Israel. Why arent you talking about those militants throwing a anti-tank rocket killing 8 Israelis? Why arent you talking about the bomb that was thrown on Israeli security forceS? Why arent you talking about the fact that the militants were egyptians, atleast some of them? This clearly shows your hypocrisy.

Quote:
but what about the GAZA FLOTILLA raid-


The Gaza Flotilla raid was necessary. EVERYTHING that goes into Gaza HAS to be inspected. How would Israel know otherwise that it is not weapons? They have to check them dont they? Also you are not talking about the fact that there was this...I forgot their name, a hardcore group that actually put up resistance that resulted in a few commandos being injured. If they were all innocent, how is it that the commandos were injured? Cuz they attacked. Of course then soldiers have to shoot. Heck even the united nations raised questions about the group of hardcore activists on board one of the ships.

International waters or not, when it comes to national security, everything is valid.

Infact before the raid, the Israeli military did ask the ships to take their supplies via land, cuz they control the waters. The ships refused and they had to raid them.

Anyway after the raid, Israel released more than 600 activists a few ships etc.,

So no, there is no betrayal. Of course any Israeli action is gonna cause some dispute with someone, but they have to do it to ensure their own survival. You still are ignoring the primary issue at hand. The Arab Israeli conflict, and how to resolve it.

A blame game where Israel is the big evil isnt gonna work. Like I said, the Palestinians brought it on themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:38 am 
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Mfreak im going to move into your house, kill your children beat your wife and lock you out, will you negotiate with me to share the house after that??

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:52 am 
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mfreak wrote:
Quote:
sraeli security forces chasing militants across the Egyptian border,


Thats not the full story now is it? A group of militants attacked Israel. Why arent you talking about those militants throwing a anti-tank rocket killing 8 Israelis? Why arent you talking about the bomb that was thrown on Israeli security forceS? Why arent you talking about the fact that the militants were egyptians, atleast some of them? This clearly shows your hypocrisy.

noticed me saying that it still is a controversy? its still going on and 3/4 th of the people say that this is a plan of israel to test the military readiness of egypt - as egypt was already weakened by the mass protests. The attacks occurred after Israels interior security service had warned of a terror attack in the region and massive Israeli troops had been stationed in the area. My question is - how did israel know this whereas the whole world didn't know? you can say israel has one of the best intelligence agency, but how did they know the timing, and why did it JUST trigger a diplomatic row between egypt and israel?. And who gave israel the right to drop boots (their soldiers) into egyptian soil without egypts permission and chase the left out TWO..just TWO militants all the way into egypt? Didn't they have brains to think of the fact that egypt has an army sufficient enough to kill two of those militants? :lol: .. or did they cross the border just to attack the egyptian soldiers, and then call it was miss firing?...really? does israel have that bad aim to just shoot down two militants? nahh, i don't think so.

Quote:
but what about the GAZA FLOTILLA raid-


The Gaza Flotilla raid was necessary. EVERYTHING that goes into Gaza HAS to be inspected. How would Israel know otherwise that it is not weapons? They have to check them dont they?
then how should the countries fighting larger terrorists groups stationed in their neighbouring countries behave? You sir, would make an interesting leader :roll:

International waters or not, when it comes to national security, everything is valid.


lol.. then in that case, why is it only israel doing this and all the other countries are not?

Quote:
They hate the Jews. They hate the Christians. They hate the hindus. They hate Shia or Sunni muslims as the case maybe, whatever they belong to.

yes, they hate most of israelis who are hypocrites and go against islam and muslims ALWAYS..did that..doing that..and will do that......
Arabs hate Christians only when the christians go against islam and call muslims 'terrorists' just cuz osama bin laden was..lol besides this, i don't see arabs hating on the christians cuz as far as i know, arabs have a lot , aloottt of christian friends.
and really? arabs hate the hindus? is it why recently india held talks and strengthened ties deeper with all of arabia and arabs were the ones that welcomed them?.. its the same case here as well. arabs will only hate the people who go against islam and accuse muslims of being terrorists and carry out some nasty,inhumane act like the burning of the holy quran. Have you seen, any true muslim burning down holy books of other religion? i don't think so. and about shias and sunnis:

First of all, they both are muslims(two different groups though) . The one that follows the true religion of islam are the sunnis. Shias were a group formed long ago- they have few changes in the way they pray and believe in some additional or altered stuff (it would take too long if i went to explain all that :P ). There are a lot of quarrels between the sunnis and shias, as the sunnis say they are right, and the shias too claim themselves as the right one. The actual people who follow the right way of islam are the sunnis... the shias originated from iran - they are good people, but when it comes to sunnis vs shias, the shias are quite arrogant and try to start quarrels ..like i said before, the arabs don't hate anyone without a reason. The shias want more shias and all governments that are controlled by a higher percentage of shias cause problems - another cause....like for the arab spring for example.
Well, lets not get into all that now, lets stay on topic and not deviate :) .

darathmurrough wrote:
Mfreak im going to move into your house, kill your children beat your wife and lock you out, will you negotiate with me to share the house after that??


yes, this was what i was trying to say to mfreak here in my first post... first, put yourself into the shoes of the gazans, then go ahead and make your decision.

And lets hope more people post on this, as it will be pointless if just only the three of us keep debating over it. Try to invite more people into this topic :D

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 9:21 am 
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Mfreak im going to move into your house, kill your children beat your wife and lock you out, will you negotiate with me to share the house after that??

yes, this was what i was trying to say to mfreak here in my first post... first, put yourself into the shoes of the gazans, then go ahead and make your decision.


Yeah in this case, the house actually belongs to Israel. This is what you dont understand. The Arabs were the ones to attack FIRST. They ganged up on Israel. So, no I wouldnt share my house, if someone tried to attack me. If you try to shoot me, and I tackle you take your gun from you. Would you be the one to make rules after that? I will tell you what you can or cannot have. Thats the way the world works.

Quote:
its still going on and 3/4 th of the people say that this is a plan of israel to test the military readiness of egypt


Who are these 3/4 of the people? Arabs? Eh. If not, who are they? And what proof do they have? Anyway what everyone says doesnt matter. What the truth is what matters. Of course Israel has itself done stuff like the failed bombing of US and British assets in Egypt, forgot the name, in order to turn the US and Britain against Egypt, in the 1950s. But all of Israels measures were to secure the safety of its country. Desperate times call for desperate measures. IF it comes down to who survives, in my opinion, anything and everything is valid.

Quote:
The attacks occurred after Israels interior security service had warned of a terror attack in the region and massive Israeli troops had been stationed in the area. My question is - how did israel know this whereas the whole world didn't know?


Why would the whole world have an interest in that? It is Israels problem. Ever heard of intel? They have spy satellites, operatives in other countries etc., Its not rocket science.

Quote:
but how did they know the timing, and why did it JUST trigger a diplomatic row between egypt and israel?


In the 1967 war, when ISrael did a pre emptive strike on Egypt, they chose a timing between around 7AM to 9AM. They chose the timing carefully because they knew the planes would be refueled, and the people working in the Egyptian air base would go off to breakfast. Similarly when they bombed Iraq's Osirak reactor, they chose a timing - a period of half hour, to reduce civilian damage, cuz they knew that there would be a shift change and not many people would be there at the site. How did they know? Planning and a superior intelligence service. Dilligence to their cause of protecting their country.

Quote:
Didn't they have brains to think of the fact that egypt has an army sufficient enough to kill two of those militants? .. or did they cross the border just to attack the egyptian soldiers, and then call it was miss firing?...really? does israel have that bad aim to just shoot down two militants? nahh, i don't think so.


When militants attack, you dont think - Eh lets let them go, the other guy will kill them. No. You pursue them and you make sure they are dead. Your posts reek of naivety and silliness, coupled with strong anti-Israel sentiments either accumulated through stupid left wing media, or you may be a muslim that just hates Israel. Not sure which.

Quote:
then how should the countries fighting larger terrorists groups stationed in their neighbouring countries behave? You sir, would make an interesting leader


I am from India. Pakistan harbors lots of terrorists. Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are the worlds top exporters of terror. I just WISH India could get into Pakistan just like Israel did in Gaza and dismantle all the terror groups. Alas its not possible, cuz that would be WW3. Pakistan is not Gaza. Indians even called for a strategic strike on Pakistan after the November 2008 terror attacks. But we HAD to show restraint. Thankfully in the middle east Israel is in control. When a country harbors terrorists, you show them no mercy. Cuz the terrorists wont.

Quote:
lol.. then in that case, why is it only israel doing this and all the other countries are not?


Because no other country has all its neighbors as its enemies. Everyone wants to end Israel. Its inevitable they respond in this fashion.

Quote:
yes, they hate most of israelis who are hypocrites and go against islam and muslims ALWAYS..did that..doing that..and will do that......
Arabs hate Christians only when the christians go against islam and call muslims 'terrorists' just cuz osama bin laden was..lol besides this, i don't see arabs hating on the christians cuz as far as i know, arabs have a lot , aloottt of christian friends.
and really? arabs hate the hindus? is it why recently india held talks and strengthened ties deeper with all of arabia and arabs were the ones that welcomed them?.. its the same case here as well. arabs will only hate the people who go against islam and accuse muslims of being terrorists and carry out some nasty,inhumane act like the burning of the holy quran. Have you seen, any true muslim burning down holy books of other religion? i don't think so. and about shias and sunnis:

First of all, they both are muslims(two different groups though) . The one that follows the true religion of islam are the sunnis. Shias were a group formed long ago- they have few changes in the way they pray and believe in some additional or altered stuff (it would take too long if i went to explain all that ). There are a lot of quarrels between the sunnis and shias, as the sunnis say they are right, and the shias too claim themselves as the right one. The actual people who follow the right way of islam are the sunnis... the shias originated from iran - they are good people, but when it comes to sunnis vs shias, the shias are quite arrogant and try to start quarrels ..like i said before, the arabs don't hate anyone without a reason. The shias want more shias and all governments that are controlled by a higher percentage of shias cause problems - another cause....like for the arab spring for example.

Well, lets not get into all that now, lets stay on topic and not deviate .


Israel is not being hypocritical. They are forced to act in this way. Of course the Arabs hate each other. You must be a sunni muslim. Just because one has one set of beliefs dont mean they have to persecute the other. For example, Saudi is against Iran. Because one is SUnni, the other is Shia. And both Iran and Saudi dont like Israel LOL. The Arabs need to get their *CENSORED* together and decide who they wanna support or be against. On the one hand they bend over to western powers, and on the other, they hate on Israel, which itself is an ally to the US. Laughable. And ofc they hate Indians. Pakistan has stronger ties to the middle east and just because India holds a political meeting doesnt mean anything. Its trade and commerce thats that. Pakistan, is against India so as muslims, they will be against India. And they are. Though they remain silent, that doesnt mean anything. If there is a choice they would choose Pakistan over India. Thats all that matters to me. And most of the terrorists from the middle east, DO work against India.

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