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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 6:19 am 
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The repercurssions aka humanitarian crisis we see everyday are solely the fault of the Hamas

i support the embargo, but surely that massive wall around palestine with military all over will also ensure palestine can never have a manageable economy?
where medical supplies have to be sent in by sanctioned groups?
Quote:
We cant blame Israel for trying to take out terrorists, and in the process killing civlians. Its collateral damage.

likewise, can you blame hamas when they capture and hold israeli soldiers hostage so that palestinians can be released? when they are beheaded/killed, it goes against every POW convention and treaty but really, for you, surely its just collateral damage in this war?

i blame them, but for you, these men/women are military personnel. its just "politics"? no. you cant shrug off over a thousand children as mere collateral, sometime, somewhere, people made the wrong decisions and reacted poorly, that is human. but to continue making the same mistakes is just stupid


Quote:
Human rights groups aka leftists

i vote this as the lowest pot shot.
leftists? come on. living in a developed nation, knowing that palestinian children are still children and are starving/lacking medical something/dying. is supporting HUMAN RIGHTS GROUPS seriously considered "leftist"?
dont sicken me with your B.S. any further.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_cross
dirty communists? of course!

there comes a point, when israel denies aid to a war torn state. where children are dying and someone wants to make a difference, to help, and you call the denial of help the most humanitarian thing possible. how about actually searching the cargo.

worst paragraph from you yet.


Quote:
Do you think the Palestinians dont know that rockets are being fired?

they do know, they should be worried whenever hamas use a school as a launching ground. parents still have parent's fears. even if they are brown.
they know israel retaliates with force no one wants to be the next israeli's target of aggression. throwing leaflets is different. it doesnt support israel, it directly targets hamas. hamas will say its israeli lies. but really. basic arabic. simple message. start small, slowly build up the messages. make it seem like some are from concerned parents about proximity to children and that hamas might be purposely signalling israel to target certain districts. sow discord, sow doubt. best thing about it is that there is a relatively high literacy rate due to how important people place reading the quran as. if israel has to be portrayed as satan, so be it. but let some blame fall on hamas. plant a seed of distrust. turn district against district. let hamas's grip loosen a little, DE LEGITIMIZE THEM.
im not talking about having people rise up in revolution, im talking about an old man chasing away a young hamas member about to fire a mortar because he is worried his family home might be destroyed in retribution, who cares if israel is still frowned upon. its hamas who has to go.

and unlike you, i know that hamas wont willingly change their mind and become sane. they are crazy through and through. waiting on them is stupid and pointless. its the people who arent crazy that you appeal to. who arent fond of israel nor hamas, who are discontent with the current system and establishment.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:11 am 
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Quote:
i support the embargo, but surely that massive wall around palestine with military all over will also ensure palestine can never have a manageable economy?
where medical supplies have to be sent in by sanctioned groups?


The wall is around Jewish settlements in the West bank and separetes Israel from the West bank. It is to stop terrorists attacks and indeed they have reduced by a significant amount.

Quote:
likewise, can you blame hamas when they capture and hold israeli soldiers hostage so that palestinians can be released? when they are beheaded/killed, it goes against every POW convention and treaty but really, for you, surely its just collateral damage in this war?

i blame them, but for you, these men/women are military personnel. its just "politics"? no. you cant shrug off over a thousand children as mere collateral, sometime, somewhere, people made the wrong decisions and reacted poorly, that is human. but to continue making the same mistakes is just stupid


Capturing and holding aka Kidnapping civilians or soldiers and demanding release of Palestinians is an act of terrorism. People killed this way arent called collateral damage. Even by the useless UN. On the other hand, Israel before bombing Gaza sends out messages on the radio, throws leaflets from the air informing the palestinians to take cover. I dont think the Hamas really does any of this. The more the people, the better for them. You cannot equate an air raid conducted in retaliation, to someone bombing a school bus full of children. One is terrorism, the other is a mission to take out the bad guys. In the process of doing that, if someone dies, then it is obviously collateral damage. Its not that Israel targets civilians. Infact there is a video on youtube I saw, where the IAF, steers a missile away from a building, because the bad guys went inside it, and it had lot of civilians in it.


Quote:
Quote:
Human rights groups aka leftists

i vote this as the lowest pot shot.
leftists? come on. living in a developed nation, knowing that palestinian children are still children and are starving/lacking medical something/dying. is supporting HUMAN RIGHTS GROUPS seriously considered "leftist"?
dont sicken me with your B.S. any further.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_cross
dirty communists? of course!

there comes a point, when israel denies aid to a war torn state. where children are dying and someone wants to make a difference, to help, and you call the denial of help the most humanitarian thing possible. how about actually searching the cargo.

worst paragraph from you yet.


Israel does not stop any humanitarian aid to Palestine. Humanitarian aid exists, and Israel allows it. What I meant was that you cannot let humanitarian aid go full swing, because of the fact that Arms have been smuggled into Gaza on these same trucks that carry medical supplies. Same reason for the recent flotilla raid, though they found nothing just medicines. Of course everyone was up in arms against Israel for doing that, but how would anyone know the ship was clean until they searched it? Human rights groups will keep complaining at the slightest hindrance. Thats why I called the leftists. For example the Goldstone report which was a fact finding mission, along with various human rights groups said that Israel had targetted civilians. It was then retracted after more information was available. This is why I call them leftists.Since Left wingers are the ones that are mostly dead against Israel. Its a fact.

Quote:
Quote:
Do you think the Palestinians dont know that rockets are being fired?

they do know, they should be worried whenever hamas use a school as a launching ground. parents still have parent's fears. even if they are brown.
they know israel retaliates with force no one wants to be the next israeli's target of aggression. throwing leaflets is different. it doesnt support israel, it directly targets hamas. hamas will say its israeli lies. but really. basic arabic. simple message. start small, slowly build up the messages. make it seem like some are from concerned parents about proximity to children and that hamas might be purposely signalling israel to target certain districts. sow discord, sow doubt. best thing about it is that there is a relatively high literacy rate due to how important people place reading the quran as. if israel has to be portrayed as satan, so be it. but let some blame fall on hamas. plant a seed of distrust. turn district against district. let hamas's grip loosen a little, DE LEGITIMIZE THEM.
im not talking about having people rise up in revolution, im talking about an old man chasing away a young hamas member about to fire a mortar because he is worried his family home might be destroyed in retribution, who cares if israel is still frowned upon. its hamas who has to go.

and unlike you, i know that hamas wont willingly change their mind and become sane. they are crazy through and through. waiting on them is stupid and pointless. its the people who arent crazy that you appeal to. who arent fond of israel nor hamas, who are discontent with the current system and establishment.


What you dont understand is that the Hamas is not crazy. What you dont get is that the Hamas = Palestinian. By ethnicity, by religious belief, by culture. You cannot change that through propaganda. If an old man sees a Hamas guy fire a rocket, he will let him fire the rocket, cuz he hates Israel EVEN if he hasnt suffered because of Israeli air strikes. You cant change that through propaganda.The ones who are sensible, are so less in number, that they have no voice.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:40 pm 
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Truth is the first casualty of war.

Take a look at these memorable quotes to begin with

-"There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies �not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy." Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001

-" [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

- "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

- David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121

how can it be Jews only land? the people that lived there centuries ago,still lives there and lived there. some turned to Muslims others remained in there religions. It was the homeland of the people that lived there before Israel was created.

- "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

- "We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

- "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

- Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. "We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters" Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.

- "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

- "We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own." (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

note that "world of our own" and not "a homeland of our own"

- "We will have a world government whether you like it or not. The only question is whether that government will be achieved by conquest or consent." (Jewish Banker Paul Warburg, February 17, 1950, as he testified before the U.S. Senate).

- "We will establish ourselves in Palestine whether you like it or not...You can hasten our arrival or you can equally *CENSORED* it. It is however better for you to help us so as to avoid our constructive powers being turned into a destructive power which will overthrow the world." (Chaim Weizmann, Published in "Judische Rundschau," No. 4, 1920)

- "Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves." - Israeli prime Minister Menachem Begin in a speech to the Knesset [Israeli Parliament] quoted by Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts," New Statesman, June 25, 1982

wow such nice words right

- "Tell me, do the evil men of this world have a bad time? They hunt and catch whatever they feel like eating. They don't suffer from indigestion and are not punished by Heaven. I want Israel to join that club. Maybe the world will then at last begin to fear us instead of feeling sorry. Maybe they will start to tremble, to fear our madness instead of admiring our nobility. Let them tremble; let them call us a mad state. Let them understand that we are a savage country, dangerous to our surroundings, not normal, that we might go wild, that we might start World War Three just like that, or that we might one day go crazy and burn all the oil fields in the Middle East. Even if you'll prove to me that the present war is a dirty immoral war, I don't care. We shall start another war, kill and destroy more and more. And do you know why it is all worth it? Because it seems that this war has made us more unpopular among the civilized world.We'll hear no more of that nonsense about the unique Jewish morality. No more talk about a unique people being a light upon the nations. No more uniqueness and no more sweetness and light. Good riddance." --Former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon

wow thats so noble and humane right?

- "What shocks and worries me is the narrow-mindedness and the shortsightedness of our military leaders. They seem to presume that the State of Israel may or even must-behave in the realm of international relations according to the laws of the jungle- -the long chain of false incidents and hostilities we have invented, and so many clashes we have provoked;" - From Diary of Moshe Sharett, former Primer Minister of Israel in Livia Rokach, Israel's Sacred Terrorism published 980

- Lord Sydenham, Hansard, House of Lords, 21 June 1922: "If we are going to admit claims on conquest thousands of years ago, the whole world will have to be turned upside down."

- Israeli Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, Inferring that killing isn't murder if the victim is Gentile. Jerusalem Post, June 19,1989: "Jewish blood and a goy's [gentile's] blood are not the same."


last of all

- Vladimir Jabotinsky (the founder and advocate of the Zionist terrorist organizations), Quoted by Maxime Rodinson in Peuple Juif ou Problem Juif. (Jewish People or Jewish Problem): "Has any People ever been seen to give up their territory of their own free will? In the same way, the Arabs of Palestine will not renounce their sovereignty without violence."

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:34 pm 
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Quoting people out of context doesnt mean anything. There are all kinds of people. Zionists, Extremists, Ultra nationalists and then you have politicians saying all kinds of *CENSORED* to give their political agenda an impetus. If you see what leftist Jews in Israel, who are politicians say, they will infact say what everyone else criticizes Israel says. If you talk to this ultra orthodox Jewish group, they will tell you how Israel should only be formed on Judgement day or something, and how Israel is not a valid state. There have been people who have refused to serve in occupied territories.

Therefore there are all kinds of people. Picking and choosing a few and quoting them, does not highlight the truth, but misrepresents a group of people or a nation. After a 60 year war, you cannot expect people to love each other. Jews HATE Arabs. Arabs HATE Jews. Its a fact.

Also, lets go with the Arab accusation of Jews "taking" land from them. I support Israel's legitimacy because, Jews have historically been persecuted. They lived in Europe, they were killed off. They lived in North Africa, they were abused there as well. So now they have their own country. If you ask Arabs they will say - "Just because they suffered in Europe does not mean we have to suffer". If you ask Europeans they will mostly say "Free Palestine!!". But if you ask them, fine you want the Jews to leave, and you Europeans want the Jews to free Palestine, where will the Jews go now? Everyone will shrug and turn their backs and walk away and wash their hands.

So you see, now Israel will protect its people. If necessary by force. They dont need any other nation to "let them live", they will live even if it comes at the cost of other people's lives. Though I dont think they see it that way. Am just saying. Cuz after all the guy with the biggest gun has peace. The guy that advocates peace will be in pieces if he doesnt have a gun.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:20 am 
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mfreak wrote:
Quote:
i support the embargo, but surely that massive wall around palestine with military all over will also ensure palestine can never have a manageable economy?
where medical supplies have to be sent in by sanctioned groups?


The wall is around Jewish settlements in the West bank and separetes Israel from the West bank. It is to stop terrorists attacks and indeed they have reduced by a significant amount.

i was more referring to the military presence + embargo.


Quote:
Capturing and holding aka Kidnapping civilians or soldiers and demanding release of Palestinians is an act of terrorism. People killed this way arent called collateral damage. Even by the useless UN. On the other hand, Israel before bombing Gaza sends out messages on the radio, throws leaflets from the air informing the palestinians to take cover. I dont think the Hamas really does any of this. The more the people, the better for them. You cannot equate an air raid conducted in retaliation, to someone bombing a school bus full of children. One is terrorism, the other is a mission to take out the bad guys. In the process of doing that, if someone dies, then it is obviously collateral damage. Its not that Israel targets civilians. Infact there is a video on youtube I saw, where the IAF, steers a missile away from a building, because the bad guys went inside it, and it had lot of civilians in it.


right now im not talking about the israeli civilians, its predominately soldiers that get kidnapped in cross border raids. they then get held as ransom for the release of many palestinians who are imprisoned. again, like i said, it violates treaties but isnt necessarily terrorism. the rockets are terrorism.

Quote:
Israel does not stop any humanitarian aid to Palestine. Humanitarian aid exists, and Israel allows it. What I meant was that you cannot let humanitarian aid go full swing, because of the fact that Arms have been smuggled into Gaza on these same trucks that carry medical supplies. Same reason for the recent flotilla raid, though they found nothing just medicines. Of course everyone was up in arms against Israel for doing that, but how would anyone know the ship was clean until they searched it? Human rights groups will keep complaining at the slightest hindrance. Thats why I called the leftists. For example the Goldstone report which was a fact finding mission, along with various human rights groups said that Israel had targetted civilians. It was then retracted after more information was available. This is why I call them leftists.Since Left wingers are the ones that are mostly dead against Israel. Its a fact.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... s-1.427184
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/04/30-1
Israel is limiting not based on existence of arms. it requires checks and background checks so stringent that a lot of aid doesnt have the official paperwork- "where was that 100kg of flour obtained?" also that flotilla raid's medicine never made it. it had expired and all that did make it was metal rods and cement. i have no idea where you get the idea that those that oppose israel are leftist. you said that you dont support israel's human rights record, are you a leftist? you are fussing over such tiny things such as the settlement building destruction. i still consider that the lowest call from you. the goldstone made an assessment and changed it with ongoing evidence. i dont know anything about the goldstone report but fresh evidence can emerge and change assessments and attitudes.
israel and turkey relations declined after it. seems israel doesnt trust turkey. because those ships went through customs and some turkey officials were incredulous when it was revealed a handgun was found on one of the boats despite all activists and the boats being checked. even to this day, the picture by the IDF of a handgun on the boat is seen with suspicion by the turkish.


Quote:
What you dont understand is that the Hamas is not crazy. What you dont get is that the Hamas = Palestinian. By ethnicity, by religious belief, by culture. You cannot change that through propaganda. If an old man sees a Hamas guy fire a rocket, he will let him fire the rocket, cuz he hates Israel EVEN if he hasnt suffered because of Israeli air strikes. You cant change that through propaganda.The ones who are sensible, are so less in number, that they have no voice.

PLO have a better grip in west bank. not only that, they are recognised by israel (as well as the UN) and in turn recognise israel.
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTW ... yfinal.pdf
"a recovery palestinian economy will reduce reliance on aid by 1 bil dollars."
this is despite the westbank being cut off and major roads being israeli blockaded. imagine that, 1 bil dollars of aid going elsewhere, less aid and hence, ties with certain arab countries since that part of palestine does not need it.

the PLO has ceased much of its hostilities. hamas do not represent palestine, PLO do. you can easily change, through subtle propaganda, support of hamas into support of PLO. PLO is the legitimate way out, and, imo, the only way out. i dont take hamas seriously, they are a terrorist group, they provide aid to gaza alongside weapons. they cannot govern gaza for the long run. as such, rather than wait for hamas to become legitimate. rather than wait for hamas to accept israel. rather than allow the cyclical violence to continue unabated. i suggest moves to strengthen PLO, to subtley tug at hamas, to introduce PLO as the better alternative to hamas.

they can provide better aid, better living, better life. like i said, parents have parents' concerns. they just want to feed their children first and foremost, if israel hate is second, then simply overshadow it by focusing on the first most important factor in one's life.

if you want to see a two nation state and an end to violence. the answer is not "MOAR VIOLENCE. KILL HAMAS" cause that cant work, it simply cannot under the current framework. the hamas draw strength from.
a.) financing from other countries with vested interests.
b.) the palestinian people for manpower

take away b. and their effect and organisation will diminish.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:48 am 
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Quote:
i was more referring to the military presence + embargo.


Of course there is a military presence. These walls have to be protected.

Quote:
right now im not talking about the israeli civilians, its predominately soldiers that get kidnapped in cross border raids. they then get held as ransom for the release of many palestinians who are imprisoned. again, like i said, it violates treaties but isnt necessarily terrorism. the rockets are terrorism.


Since when is abducting soldiers not terrorism? Abducting someone and then demanding ransom in return for the persons life, is indeed terrorism at its best.

Quote:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... s-1.427184
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/04/30-1
Israel is limiting not based on existence of arms. it requires checks and background checks so stringent that a lot of aid doesnt have the official paperwork- "where was that 100kg of flour obtained?" also that flotilla raid's medicine never made it. it had expired and all that did make it was metal rods and cement. i have no idea where you get the idea that those that oppose israel are leftist. you said that you dont support israel's human rights record, are you a leftist? you are fussing over such tiny things such as the settlement building destruction. i still consider that the lowest call from you. the goldstone made an assessment and changed it with ongoing evidence. i dont know anything about the goldstone report but fresh evidence can emerge and change assessments and attitudes.
israel and turkey relations declined after it. seems israel doesnt trust turkey. because those ships went through customs and some turkey officials were incredulous when it was revealed a handgun was found on one of the boats despite all activists and the boats being checked. even to this day, the picture by the IDF of a handgun on the boat is seen with suspicion by the turkish.



Yes so how do you think they would try find out where weapons etc come from? They have to ask questions. Be extremely strict. Take note of each and every ounce of whatever that crosses the borders into Gaza or the West bank. If they slack, you could easily smuggle something into Gaza and then use it against Isarel.

Again I explained why I called them leftists. Its predominantly leftist support for the palestinians. Human rights groups only take into account he difficulties of the Palestinians but not Israel. I dont support brutality anywhere, but sometimes that is what is needed to contain terrorism. My support of Israel comes from the fact that India suffers the same kind of terrorism from Pakistan, albeit on a much lower scale. Unknown to the world about 40000 people have perished due to terrorist activies in Kashmir. Every single day you hear that someone died. Or some terror cell was taken down. Last year alone they brutally cracked down on 400 terrorists in Kashmir. In the process the Indian Army brutalizes the people of Kashmir that are predominantly muslim. Do I support it? No I dont. Is it necessary? Yes it is. The Indian Army is far worse than the IDF, They have special powers. To shoot to kill on SUSPICION. There have been lots of atrocities. Its shameful. But its their brutality, that sadly, stops terrorism from spreading across the nation the way it would otherwise. So if someone is just gonna criticize India for its brutality in Kashmir, without thinking about the rest of hte country or what the terrorists wanna do to the rest of the country, then yes they go predominantly by leftists views.

I brought up the goldstone report, because anyone speaking against the recent Gaza war, uses it to point out that Israel targetted civilans. Even Finklestein and Chomsky do. But Goldstone himself, retracted his statement.

Quote:
PLO have a better grip in west bank. not only that, they are recognised by israel (as well as the UN) and in turn recognise israel.
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTW ... yfinal.pdf
"a recovery palestinian economy will reduce reliance on aid by 1 bil dollars."
this is despite the westbank being cut off and major roads being israeli blockaded. imagine that, 1 bil dollars of aid going elsewhere, less aid and hence, ties with certain arab countries since that part of palestine does not need it.

the PLO has ceased much of its hostilities. hamas do not represent palestine, PLO do. you can easily change, through subtle propaganda, support of hamas into support of PLO. PLO is the legitimate way out, and, imo, the only way out. i dont take hamas seriously, they are a terrorist group, they provide aid to gaza alongside weapons. they cannot govern gaza for the long run. as such, rather than wait for hamas to become legitimate. rather than wait for hamas to accept israel. rather than allow the cyclical violence to continue unabated. i suggest moves to strengthen PLO, to subtley tug at hamas, to introduce PLO as the better alternative to hamas.

they can provide better aid, better living, better life. like i said, parents have parents' concerns. they just want to feed their children first and foremost, if israel hate is second, then simply overshadow it by focusing on the first most important factor in one's life.

if you want to see a two nation state and an end to violence. the answer is not "MOAR VIOLENCE. KILL HAMAS" cause that cant work, it simply cannot under the current framework. the hamas draw strength from.
a.) financing from other countries with vested interests.
b.) the palestinian people for manpower

take away b. and their effect and organisation will diminish.


The Hamas was the one that overthrew PLO control in Gaza. They overthrew Fatah in Gaza. They are ELECTED by the Palestinians, which means the Palestinians in Gaza WANT the Hamas. Now are you gonna tell me that the PLO has a better Grip? The PLO is in the West Bank. Terrorism from the West bank is not as much as terrorism from Gaza. If you wanna form a two nation state, then you need Gaza AND the West bank to unite. That is currently not possible. The people in the West Bank, aka PLO representing them will be reasonable in their deals with Israel. They have been, and every peace talk before has been conducted with the PLO. But none of them have been successful, because of the Hamas. Therefore,

a) Financing form other countries like Iran, wont stop
b) The palestinian man power the Hamas uses, isnt gonna diminish, because they WANT to be a part of the Hamas.

You still arguing with the hope that they are reasonable people. Sadly they arent. They arent united. They arent reasonable. They just want the Jews dead and Israel gone. And now the whole issue is mired in cultural, religious, historical and political complications.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:16 am 
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Experiencing 501 error, gonna be a series of edits as i find out what is wrong specifically with the post.

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mfreak wrote:
Quote:
i support the embargo, but surely that massive wall around palestine with military all over will also ensure palestine can never have a manageable economy?
where medical supplies have to be sent in by sanctioned groups?


The wall is around Jewish settlements in the West bank and separetes Israel from the West bank. It is to stop terrorists attacks and indeed they have reduced by a significant amount.

i was more referring to the military presence + embargo.


Quote:
Capturing and holding aka Kidnapping civilians or soldiers and demanding release of Palestinians is an act of terrorism. People killed this way arent called collateral damage. Even by the useless UN. On the other hand, Israel before bombing Gaza sends out messages on the radio, throws leaflets from the air informing the palestinians to take cover. I dont think the Hamas really does any of this. The more the people, the better for them. You cannot equate an air raid conducted in retaliation, to someone bombing a school bus full of children. One is terrorism, the other is a mission to take out the bad guys. In the process of doing that, if someone dies, then it is obviously collateral damage. Its not that Israel targets civilians. Infact there is a video on youtube I saw, where the IAF, steers a missile away from a building, because the bad guys went inside it, and it had lot of civilians in it.


right now im not talking about the israeli civilians, its predominately soldiers that get kidnapped in cross border raids. they then get held as ransom for the release of many palestinians who are imprisoned. again, like i said, it violates treaties but isnt necessarily terrorism. the rockets are terrorism.

Quote:
Israel does not stop any humanitarian aid to Palestine. Humanitarian aid exists, and Israel allows it. What I meant was that you cannot let humanitarian aid go full swing, because of the fact that Arms have been smuggled into Gaza on these same trucks that carry medical supplies. Same reason for the recent flotilla raid, though they found nothing just medicines. Of course everyone was up in arms against Israel for doing that, but how would anyone know the ship was clean until they searched it? Human rights groups will keep complaining at the slightest hindrance. Thats why I called the leftists. For example the Goldstone report which was a fact finding mission, along with various human rights groups said that Israel had targetted civilians. It was then retracted after more information was available. This is why I call them leftists.Since Left wingers are the ones that are mostly dead against Israel. Its a fact.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... s-1.427184
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/04/30-1
Israel is limiting not based on existence of arms. it requires checks and background checks so stringent that a lot of aid doesnt have the official paperwork- "where was that 100kg of flour obtained?" also that flotilla raid's medicine never made it. it had expired and all that did make it was metal rods and cement. i have no idea where you get the idea that those that oppose israel are leftist. you said that you dont support israel's human rights record, are you a leftist? you are fussing over such tiny things such as the settlement building destruction. i still consider that the lowest call from you. the goldstone made an assessment and changed it with ongoing evidence. i dont know anything about the goldstone report but fresh evidence can emerge and change assessments and attitudes.

israel and turkey relations declined after it. seems israel doesnt trust turkey. because those ships went through customs and some turkey officials were incredulous when it was revealed a handgun was found on one of the boats despite all activists and the boats being checked. even to this day, the picture by the IDF of a handgun on the boat is seen with suspicion by the turkish.


Quote:
What you dont understand is that the Hamas is not crazy. What you dont get is that the Hamas = Palestinian. By ethnicity, by religious belief, by culture. You cannot change that through propaganda. If an old man sees a Hamas guy fire a rocket, he will let him fire the rocket, cuz he hates Israel EVEN if he hasnt suffered because of Israeli air strikes. You cant change that through propaganda.The ones who are sensible, are so less in number, that they have no voice.
[/quote]
PLO have a better grip in west bank. not only that, they are recognised by israel (as well as the UN) and in turn recognise israel.

FOUND THE ERROR. ITS THIS GUY
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTWESTBANKGAZA/Resources/WestBankrestrictions9Mayfinal.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:24 am 
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sorry for double post, i have reason to believe that 501 error is the fact that there are too many characters in one post. had to stretch over 2 posts i guess or at least until someone can clarify the 501 error for me.

nope it was this guy.
Quote:
a recovery palestinian economy will reduce reliance on aid by 1 bil dollars.


this is despite the westbank being cut off and major roads being israeli blockaded. imagine that, 1 bil dollars of aid going elsewhere, less aid and hence, ties with certain arab countries since that part of palestine does not need it.
the PLO has ceased much of its hostilities. hamas do not represent palestine, PLO do. you can easily change, through subtle propaganda, support of hamas into support of PLO. PLO is the legitimate way out, and, imo, the only way out. i dont take hamas seriously, they are a terrorist group, they provide aid to gaza alongside weapons. they cannot govern gaza for the long run. as such, rather than wait for hamas to become legitimate. rather than wait for hamas to accept israel. rather than allow the cyclical violence to continue unabated. i suggest moves to strengthen PLO, to subtley tug at hamas, to introduce PLO as the better alternative to hamas.

they can provide better aid, better living, better life. like i said, parents have parents' concerns. they just want to feed their children first and foremost, if israel hate is second, then simply overshadow it by focusing on the first most important factor in one's life.

if you want to see a two nation state and an end to violence. the answer is not "MOAR VIOLENCE. KILL HAMAS" cause that cant work, it simply cannot under the current framework. the hamas draw strength from.
a.) financing from other countries with vested interests.
b.) the palestinian people for manpower

take away b. and their effect and organisation will diminish.


as for those quotes, mfreak is right, there is a certain percentage of israel who are zionists, who claim all the land is their biblical birthright. but at the same time you have jews and israelis, talking out against the zionist movement, shaming israel actions and all in all apply the balance to the political spectrum. current israeli government is swinging to the right but they are in no way represented by those quotes there.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:33 am 
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I dont understand one word of your last 2 posts :?

I think I already answered those? :?

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:54 am 
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mfreak wrote:
I dont understand one word of your last 2 posts :?

I think I already answered those? :?

hmmm ignore it then


Quote:
Of course there is a military presence. These walls have to be protected.

embargo? such a strict embargo ensures that gaza will always be dependent and poor.

Quote:
Since when is abducting soldiers not terrorism? Abducting someone and then demanding ransom in return for the persons life, is indeed terrorism at its best.

my bad, correct method regarding soldiers is outright killing them. terrorism is the use of force on a civilian population for political, ideological or something goals by a non state entity.
seeing as how palestine is recognised by most as a state. technically is just warfare, not terrorism.

Quote:
Yes so how do you think they would try find out where weapons etc come from? They have to ask questions. Be extremely strict. Take note of each and every ounce of whatever that crosses the borders into Gaza or the West bank. If they slack, you could easily smuggle something into Gaza and then use it against Isarel.

or maybe, just maybe, you use the tunnels to smuggle weapons. all aid gets checked before entering gaza, if you read the article, its more about how stringent the process to deliver aid is. its so stringent, so tedious, that aid is practically being denied access, hence the speaking out.

Quote:
Its predominantly leftist support for the palestinians.

yeah, but you dont say leftist support for workers. nor do you say leftist support for the LGBT community nor leftist support for anti war movements or leftist support for feeding children from low income households through "leftist programs" (see recent controversy regarding the GOP budget and its cuts). in fact, i rarely ever hear someone say "leftist" because it is such a low blow.

Quote:
Human rights groups only take into account he difficulties of the Palestinians but not Israel.

they were quick to condemn the use of human shields, israel doesnt face routine humanitarian crisis though

Quote:
I dont support brutality anywhere, but sometimes that is what is needed to contain terrorism.

what about the sound logic that terrorism encourages terrorism. every single civilian accidentally killed as "collateral" has 5 young, impressionable men who are now willing to avenge them. gang warfare is similar. a slight altercation results in someone getting bashed. he comes back with his friends and they smack down on the attackers. attackers come back with weapons and it escalates from there until there is nothing but blood and violence between them.
everytime israel violently acts against palestine is just another reason for some palestinians to act towards israel. and guess who in palestine is recruiting for fighters against israel? hamas.

Quote:
Now are you gonna tell me that the PLO has a better Grip?

clearly stated west bank. clearly stated that work needs to be done to loosen hamas control and encourage PLO control.

Quote:
You still arguing with the hope that they are reasonable people. Sadly they arent. They arent united. They arent reasonable. They just want the Jews dead and Israel gone. And now the whole issue is mired in cultural, religious, historical and political complications.

every large population has reasonable people. you are now arguing hoping that every man, woman and child are unreasonable, that the entire palestinian population is dead set in the destruction of israel. that the only solution would to be borderline termination of them. no. gaza isnt filled to the brim with haters. just a large majority feel slighted by israel and do support hamas.

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