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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:00 am 
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This is why Israel follows this brutal way of containing the situation. They go in there, bomb everything to *CENSORED*, and terrorize them. It creates a humanitarian crisis. So everything stops for a few years. When it starts again, they do it again. I know this is ineffective, but you have to understand you are dealing with maniacs. You cannot circumvent them in that place. Gaza is like what 50 km long and 10 km wide? 5 million people there, supporting Hamas. How do you circumvent them? Its just not possible.

but what does this accomplish other than renewing hatred of israel and giving hamas reason and cause for the destruction of israel, the people of palestine reason and cause to turn to hamas.

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Therefore, IF AT ALL there CAN be any solution in the future, the only way would be for the Hamas to change its stance. Because seriously, even if Israel DID circumvent the Hamas and lets say, they even create a seperate state of Palestine, what guarantee do you have that the terrorist attacks wont continue? Absolutely nothing. Cuz the Hamas wants not just Gaza and the West Bank, but the whole of Israel to be replaced with a Palestinian state.

extend the hand of humanitarian aid, reduce/remove reason for the hamas' line of israel's destruction. you cant wait on the radicals to become un radicals because you are killing them, martyrs make their organisation stronger.

make it so that the people of palestine dont support hamas in anyway, when hamas can no longer recruit soldiers for its cause, turn hamas into a vile, poisonous thing to the palestinian people, out propaganda them.

that has to be the cleanest, most direct way of dealing with and defusing the situation. sitting on our hands in resignation to the bloody cycle of israel killing civies->humanitarian crisis->pause->kill civs-> crisis->pause->kill civs->....

what does that acheive? waiting on some ridiculous notion that hamas will suddenly see the error of their ways will amount to nothing. who bites the hand that feeds them? no one. thats why hamas has such a grip of control in the area. de legitimise them to the palestinian people through propaganda, helping palestinians, supporting the PLO, distributing medical supplies, etc is the way to toppling them. because like you said, they are extremists, they dont negotiate well. you need to take them down, the problem being that brute force will not work as it will only strengthen them.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:27 am 
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Ohh wait. Now I see the problem. Its in your understanding of the Hamas, why it was created and what it stands for not just as an organization but in the eyes of the Palestinian people. You think the Hamas is an organization that has popped up, because of Israel's brutality in Palestine. That is not the case.

According to many Arabs, the current population of Israel - the white skinned, blue eyed, blond haired Israellis (God, the women are hot :lol:),are not native to the land. According to them they are Europeans, and they believe that these Europeans have snatched land from the locals. The roots of their cause dont lie in Israels actions TODAY, but lies in the historic Arab-Israeli conflict. The Palestine issue is just a part of that larger conflict.

So according to the Hamas, and the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank, the ONLY solution to the problem, is for Israel to go. They believe that the Jews, who lived there (the natives and they are dark skinned btw), amongst the muslims for centuries, can continue to live there, but the Europeans (the majority of Israel today) dont belong there, so need to go back to where they came from. And UNLESS that happens, they wont stop their fight against Israel. So its not really human rights abuses by Israel that is a reason for the Palestinian population to support the Hamas. Therefore this problem has cultural, historical and religious issues tied to it.

The humanitarian crisis just adds to that issue. So solving that, by being kind, will not solve the issue at all. The issue of Israel's legitimacy, will still be an issue. This is why helping Palestinians wont work.

BTW I think Israel infact does help in certain ways. For example last year, 180,000 Palestinians were treated in Israeli hospitals. And am damn sure none of those guys could pay premium prices given the fact that most of them are extremely poor.

Here is a link:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... zaaid.html

See how inspite of humanitarian effort, the attacks continue.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:53 am 
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Then how can the PLO exist and acknowledge Israel?

face it, part of Hamas' legitimacy is the fact that israel has killed palestines

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125 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,471 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ figure last updated oct-2011
that is 1471 children killed. surely you know that is fuel for the fire, regardless if they are used by hamas as human shields. the vast majority was merely collateral in israel's eyes.

but by far, the encroaching of Israel in terms of settlements is what would, as you suggest, inflame any historical or cultural hatred of israel. the hamas have a much more valid point when your HOUSE HAS BEEN DEMOLISHED BY THE STATE OF ISRAEL. and you have done nothing wrong. validating hamas, that is what im suggesting to avoid. the fact of the matter is you cannot beat them by force short of nuclear. it would only give the ordinary civilians the reason to direct all their anger at israel. for every 3 terrorist kills, if just one child is collateral, thats probably another 5 young idealistic men to hamas who want to avenge their younger brother or sister.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:09 am 
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go watch the zohan, it will explain everything

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:43 pm 
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hen how can the PLO exist and acknowledge Israel?


The PLO acknowledges Israel because they have no other choice. But how powerful are they is the question. They are not influential.

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face it, part of Hamas' legitimacy is the fact that israel has killed palestines


See if Israel has killed Palestinians, then it is because of collateral damage. Gaza is 40 km long with 5 million people, and the Hamas lives amongst these guys. So when Israel throws a bomb, it kills people as well. Israel however does not send in its tanks, and hunt civilians just to prove a point. But the Hamas targets Israeli civilians. Like a few months back they threw a Kornet anti tank missile on a school bus. Guess a kid died.

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Quote:
125 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,471 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ figure last updated oct-2011
that is 1471 children killed. surely you know that is fuel for the fire, regardless if they are used by hamas as human shields. the vast majority was merely collateral in israel's eyes.

but by far, the encroaching of Israel in terms of settlements is what would, as you suggest, inflame any historical or cultural hatred of israel. the hamas have a much more valid point when your HOUSE HAS BEEN DEMOLISHED BY THE STATE OF ISRAEL. and you have done nothing wrong. validating hamas, that is what im suggesting to avoid. the fact of the matter is you cannot beat them by force short of nuclear. it would only give the ordinary civilians the reason to direct all their anger at israel. for every 3 terrorist kills, if just one child is collateral, thats probably another 5 young idealistic men to hamas who want to avenge their younger brother or sister.


The settlement issue, bulldozing of houses is something I agree, is probably Israels fault. But on the other hand, they are building settlements in areas taken in defence. The war is still not over. So the area still belongs to Israel. If there is a solution, then am sure Israel would evacuate those settlements even if Israelis protest, like during the 2005 disengagement plan. Land is not the problem. Israel gave back Sinai to Egypt, after they signed peace didnt they?

Your solution makes sense, in that its a much more civilized way of solving the issue. But dont you think the Hamas, actually wants this? They survive because of Israel attacking them in retaliation. If there was no collateral damage, then wouldn't the Hamas lose legitimacy? Would THEY want it in the first place?

Thing is, when Jews came to Israel, they looked forward to life. A new beginning after the holocaust. Therefore they invested their everything in development and progress. 65 years later, they are a high income developed economy. The Palestinians invested their everything in death. The death of the Jewish people. And this is what they get in return. - Avi's words (He is an old player). Pretty strong words, but its the truth!!.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:51 am 
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Israel however does not send in its tanks

there was that offensive a few years back.

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The settlement issue, bulldozing of houses is something I agree, is probably Israels fault. But on the other hand, they are building settlements in areas taken in defence.

you dont take land in defense, you take it in offense. if you were an israel supporting palestinian that lived in an area 'taken in defense' due to hamas activity there then boom, there goes your family home. if they were neutral then they now support hamas, if they were supporters of israel, they are now neutral. unforunately there are few supporters of israel in palestine, but there are plenty of those who are pissed off or at the very least neutral about israel.

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The Palestinians invested their everything in death.

90% of hamas's moneys go to education, health, welfare, etc. for palestinians. i brought this up before hand. i think israel gets like 9 mil a day from the US to ensure the middle east is kept in check by israel's mere existence.
so seriously, dont go around calling things the truth when it is to the contrary.

Quote:
Thing is, when Jews came to Israel, they looked forward to life. A new beginning after the holocaust.

did you know an offered place to settle was a desert in australia? if i remember there were plenty of places proposed. no body wanted to take them in, jewish vilification became quite systematic due to the catholic church's position for a couple hundred years. blood libel came into existence due to jew hate.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:39 am 
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there was that offensive a few years back.


You quoted me out of context :D I meant send in its tanks specifically targetting civilians. They went in a few years back to bomb Gaza, in order to stop the missile threats which had drastically increased.

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you dont take land in defense, you take it in offense. if you were an israel supporting palestinian that lived in an area 'taken in defense' due to hamas activity there then boom, there goes your family home. if they were neutral then they now support hamas, if they were supporters of israel, they are now neutral. unforunately there are few supporters of israel in palestine, but there are plenty of those who are pissed off or at the very least neutral about israel.


It is taking in defence, when the previous occupiers (Jordan and Egypt) try to attack you, and you push them away and occupy that land. Yes there are lots of people pissed off about Israel. The reason they are pissed off about Israel, the real Reason, is that they dont want a Jewish nation there. They want an Islamic nation instead of the Jewish state. The humanitarian crisis, which I would say they brought it on themselves, is just something that adds to it.

Quote:
90% of hamas's moneys go to education, health, welfare, etc. for palestinians. i brought this up before hand. i think israel gets like 9 mil a day from the US to ensure the middle east is kept in check by israel's mere existence.
so seriously, dont go around calling things the truth when it is to the contrary.


Man these figures about the Hamas, are all not true. If they spent for education, health and welfare, why are the Palestinians in such a terrible state? Why cant they do that and stop attacking Israel? In reality, they spend a bit on Palestinians, but most of their funds - that come from countries like Iran, is used for purposes of terrorism.

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did you know an offered place to settle was a desert in australia? if i remember there were plenty of places proposed. no body wanted to take them in, jewish vilification became quite systematic due to the catholic church's position for a couple hundred years. blood libel came into existence due to jew hate.


I know even Madagascar was considered. Jewish vilification exists even today. Like liberals say Jews control the world and the banks. White nationalists say Jews promote multiculturalism. I mean Jews do everything, that everyone considers wrong. LOL. Its laughable really.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:13 am 
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I pray for the day when people from both countries can live peacefully and work progressively to build their region, together.

War or fight for whatever reason only make extensive sufferings to many other innocent ppl - women and children, included.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:05 am 
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mfreak wrote:
Quote:
there was that offensive a few years back.


You quoted me out of context :D I meant send in its tanks specifically targetting civilians. They went in a few years back to bomb Gaza, in order to stop the missile threats which had drastically increased.

my apologies, its just that the majority of casualties were civilian in nature. it just seemed like a valid point to bring up

Quote:
you dont take land in defense, you take it in offense. if you were an israel supporting palestinian that lived in an area 'taken in defense' due to hamas activity there then boom, there goes your family home. if they were neutral then they now support hamas, if they were supporters of israel, they are now neutral. unforunately there are few supporters of israel in palestine, but there are plenty of those who are pissed off or at the very least neutral about israel.


It is taking in defence, when the previous occupiers (Jordan and Egypt) try to attack you, and you push them away and occupy that land. Yes there are lots of people pissed off about Israel. The reason they are pissed off about Israel, the real Reason, is that they dont want a Jewish nation there. They want an Islamic nation instead of the Jewish state. The humanitarian crisis, which I would say they brought it on themselves, is just something that adds to it.

and.... bulldozing houses to build israeli houses demonstrates long term occupation, does it not? if it was land taken in defense, you have merely shifted the military line further out. not shift it and then begin renovating for permanent settlement.

Quote:
90% of hamas's moneys go to education, health, welfare, etc. for palestinians. i brought this up before hand. i think israel gets like 9 mil a day from the US to ensure the middle east is kept in check by israel's mere existence.
so seriously, dont go around calling things the truth when it is to the contrary.


Man these figures about the Hamas, are all not true. If they spent for education, health and welfare, why are the Palestinians in such a terrible state? Why cant they do that and stop attacking Israel? In reality, they spend a bit on Palestinians, but most of their funds - that come from countries like Iran, is used for purposes of terrorism.

http://english.nuqudy.com/Levant/Hamas_Budgets_769_m-316
62% on non military in 2012. information is sketchy at best due to the nature of finding out about hamas' funding
they have a welfare system as many palestinians are refugees without homes.
face it, they have the support of the palestinian people because they have to at least care for the palestinian people. they have a bureaucracy of 30 000 in an attempt to provide jobs.
again, same link.
http://www.cfr.org/israel/hamas/p8968#p6
90% way back in 2005/2006.


Quote:
did you know an offered place to settle was a desert in australia? if i remember there were plenty of places proposed. no body wanted to take them in, jewish vilification became quite systematic due to the catholic church's position for a couple hundred years. blood libel came into existence due to jew hate.


I know even Madagascar was considered. Jewish vilification exists even today. Like liberals say Jews control the world and the banks. White nationalists say Jews promote multiculturalism. I mean Jews do everything, that everyone considers wrong. LOL. Its laughable really.

they are making the jews out to be the super powered race. jews can control the world by flying inbetween the control centres. they also have heat vision.

i like how southpark's eric cartman invalidates the whole anti semitic movement. makes it seem childish and stupid by being very anti semitic

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:20 am 
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Quote:
http://english.nuqudy.com/Levant/Hamas_Budgets_769_m-316
62% on non military in 2012. information is sketchy at best due to the nature of finding out about hamas' funding
they have a welfare system as many palestinians are refugees without homes.
face it, they have the support of the palestinian people because they have to at least care for the palestinian people. they have a bureaucracy of 30 000 in an attempt to provide jobs.
again, same link.
http://www.cfr.org/israel/hamas/p8968#p6
90% way back in 2005/2006.


Yeah so info is sketchy, because most of the funding comes from countries like Iran. Added to that, is the fact that they are using it against Israel.

Quote:
and.... bulldozing houses to build israeli houses demonstrates long term occupation, does it not? if it was land taken in defense, you have merely shifted the military line further out. not shift it and then begin renovating for permanent settlement.


Bulldozing houses is something even a lot of Israelis dont agree with. Yes the land was taken in defence and as long as its disputed territory, the land is Israels. But bulldozing houses and throwing these guys on the road is inhuman. I already said this. But these are really not the reasons for the conflict, these are just the long term effects of it.

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