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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:00 am 
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They can spend 90 percent of their expenditure on something else, because Iran arms them. I mean, they do it for free literally. Iranian generals are there in Gaza training these guys.

BTW how can Israel take the first step? They have taken many steps in the past, like in 2005 moved out of Gaza and evacuated settlements etc.,

The problem really is that once Israel gives them one thing, they'd want another. And so on, until there is no Israel left. Because of the deep rooted feeling that the Jews in Israel today are not native to the land, but are of European ancestry. That along with anti-semitism of course. Which is also the basis of their charter.

Secondly, how do you expect a powerful nation, economically and militarily, to politically take a weaker stance? I mean when you have the gun, you call the shots. The Hamas refuses to accept Israel as a legitimate state. Once they do that, then Israel can take some steps to resolve the issue, cuz a reality check shows you, that its Palestine that suffers. Not Israel. Therefore Palestine aka Hamas have to make the first move.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:19 am 
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I am almost enticed to join in this debate wholeheartedly, having represented palestine in several debates and considering myself knowledgeable on the subject, and having the opportunity to debate against allen.

But homework, so screw you.

But still, really quickly

mfreak wrote:
BTW how can Israel take the first step? They have taken many steps in the past, like in 2005 moved out of Gaza and evacuated settlements etc.,
Israel refuses to compromise on many issues, particularly regarding settlements. I'm not too sure how Israel has evacuated settlements--surely never on a mass scale?

mfreak wrote:
Secondly, how do you expect a powerful nation, economically and militarily, to politically take a weaker stance
That's just wrong. So US should be allowed to bully other countries for their own benefit? So the strong should be able to bully the weak, the 51 to disregard and take metaphorical dumps on the 49? Hamas refuses to accept Israel as a legitimate state, but Hamas is not Palestine. The PLO is the Palestinian governing authority, NOT Hamas. PLO represents Palestine in the UN, NOT Hamas. Furthermore, Hamas popularity has dipped. Your argument based on equating Hamas with PLO borders on ad hominem.

Also the PLO has confirmed Israel's right to exist, so that argument is invalid.

I support the two state solution, for a variety of reasons. But I'll just go through and refute some of your points
mfreak wrote:
1. Is Palestine capable of being a seperate country - NO. Cuz, who will rule Palestine? Fatah? PLA? Hamas?
2. This nation HAS to recognize Israel as a legitimate state. Will they do that? NO. Even if they did, they will stand divided once again.
3. What is the guarantee, that this new state wont sponsor terrorism once again against Israel? What if groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, who are funded and armed openly by Iran dont stop their activities?
4. Will this newly formed state, let Israel have a say in its internal affairs? And this is very important. For Israels security. I dont think so.

1. PLO? The sole legitimate representation of Palestine as recognized by the UN, the US, AND Israel?
2. PLO did?
3. PLO adopted UNSC 242 and 338 (i think those are exact numbers?), the peace thingies
4. Why the hell would any country let another country have a say in its internal affairs? That's just wrong, for any country. That violates national sovereignty on so many levels.


Allen, are you even aware of PLO? 9.9

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:55 pm 
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Israel refuses to compromise on many issues, particularly regarding settlements. I'm not too sure how Israel has evacuated settlements--surely never on a mass scale?


First of all, these settlements are being asked to be removed because people say its in occupied territory. I believe that this term is wrong. The occupied territories as they are called today, were actually occupied by Jordan (West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza) before 1967 (after the 1948 war). After the Six Day war, Israel took these lands along with the Golan heights by force. People also always talk about the pre 1967 borders. But the pre 67 borders as they are called, dont even have legality according to international law. Those borders were called the Armistice line of 1949. It was sort of a ceasefire line, thats all. They werent any sort of international border. But after the Six Day war, since Israel took these lands in defence, and since the war has neither come to an end, nor has there been any readjustment of relations between the Arab nations (except Jordan and Egypt), the term occupied territory is wrong. The territory recommended by the UN, in 1948 according to UN resolution 181 has no validity today, because the Arabs failed to honor it. Nor is the West Bank and Gaza occupied territory, because its territory taken by force by Israel IN DEFENCE.

Israel did not just waltz into Gaza and West Bank and start building settlements. Once the war is over, once the Arab nations make peace with Israel, stop terrorist activities against the state, recognize it as a legitimate state, then you can blame Israel if they send in their army to build settlements. That said, I do condemn bulldozing houses and *CENSORED* like that. This is what I termed as war crimes in my previous post.

The 2005 unilateral disengagement plan, was Israeli unilateral evacuation of Gaza militarily and otherwise. This was followed by rocket attacks...maybe as a sign of thanks, which is sort of a weird way to thank people lol.

Quote:
That's just wrong. So US should be allowed to bully other countries for their own benefit? So the strong should be able to bully the weak, the 51 to disregard and take metaphorical dumps on the 49? Hamas refuses to accept Israel as a legitimate state, but Hamas is not Palestine. The PLO is the Palestinian governing authority, NOT Hamas. PLO represents Palestine in the UN, NOT Hamas. Furthermore, Hamas popularity has dipped. Your argument based on equating Hamas with PLO borders on ad hominem.


You cannot equate the US with Israel. The Us has only strategic interests in the middle east. All their wars there are aimed at their strategic interests...meaning they are business related. Israels wars on the other hand are defensive in nature. The PLO is the one representing Palestine you say? Lemme counter that with what happened during the Oslo accords. The PLO recognized it, the Fatah recognized it but the Hamas did not, since they did not recognize Israel as a legitimate state. They continued throwing rockets into Israel. If you say the PLO does indeed represent Palestine, why is the Hamas elected in Gaza? How can you form a state out of Gaza and the West Bank, when:

a) They are being ruled by 2 different entities.
b) One recognizes Israel but the other indulges in cross border terrorism against Israel and refuses to recognize its legitimacy, not to mention wants Israel to be wiped off the map.
c) The PLO for all its legitimacy, can still not overthrow the Hamas in Gaza. Why is that?

When the PLO cant even control the Hamas, which has the support of the Palestinians in Gaza BTW, how would you trust them to run a nation?? How would you trust them curb terrorism against Israel? The PLO might be saying the right things alright, but are they ready to actually act? I dont think so.


Quote:
1. PLO? The sole legitimate representation of Palestine as recognized by the UN, the US, AND Israel?
2. PLO did?
3. PLO adopted UNSC 242 and 338 (i think those are exact numbers?), the peace thingies


I think the first 3 questions are already answered by the last para.


Quote:
4. Why the hell would any country let another country have a say in its internal affairs? That's just wrong, for any country. That violates national sovereignty on so many levels.


Because Palestine was a place from where terrorists acted against Israel. So Israel would want a say in security related matters atleast. Its only natural.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:03 am 
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mfreak, you have made it clear that the two state solution does not work, what do you propose? another military incursion? what will that acheive?

forced mass displacement of the palestinians? im sure that will go down well.

israel takes the first step, brings egypt in always in negotiations. demonstrates repeated good will and then the hamas will lose their support. their continued rhetoric would become senseless if israel isnt the aggressor, isnt forcing the poor lifestyle by constricting economic flow, isnt over bearing.

precisely because israel is the stronger militarily is why they must make the first move. israel can crush palestine militarily, there is no doubt about it. if palestine bows first, it would be seen as losing, as bending the knee. if israel does it, it is good will. no, it wont be easy. but seriously, what do you propose? scorched earth? glass palestine area and salt the earth?

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:17 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:38 am 
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mfreak, you have made it clear that the two state solution does not work, what do you propose? another military incursion? what will that acheive?

forced mass displacement of the palestinians? im sure that will go down well.

israel takes the first step, brings egypt in always in negotiations. demonstrates repeated good will and then the hamas will lose their support. their continued rhetoric would become senseless if israel isnt the aggressor, isnt forcing the poor lifestyle by constricting economic flow, isnt over bearing.

precisely because israel is the stronger militarily is why they must make the first move. israel can crush palestine militarily, there is no doubt about it. if palestine bows first, it would be seen as losing, as bending the knee. if israel does it, it is good will. no, it wont be easy. but seriously, what do you propose? scorched earth? glass palestine area and salt the earth?


What I propose, is indeed a two state solution, with Gaza and the West bank under the PLO. But what you refuse to accept is the fact that Israel is actually ready to do that. But it is the Hamas that is stopping it from happening. Egypt and Jordan dont wanna have anything to do with this conflict. This is why they have rejected their right to take back Gaza and West Bank and signed peace with Israel. They have washed their hands.

So before anything proceeds, I would propose that the Hamas is dead and gone. But will it? The situation is far too complex.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:02 am 
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mfreak wrote:
Quote:
mfreak, you have made it clear that the two state solution does not work, what do you propose? another military incursion? what will that acheive?

forced mass displacement of the palestinians? im sure that will go down well.

israel takes the first step, brings egypt in always in negotiations. demonstrates repeated good will and then the hamas will lose their support. their continued rhetoric would become senseless if israel isnt the aggressor, isnt forcing the poor lifestyle by constricting economic flow, isnt over bearing.

precisely because israel is the stronger militarily is why they must make the first move. israel can crush palestine militarily, there is no doubt about it. if palestine bows first, it would be seen as losing, as bending the knee. if israel does it, it is good will. no, it wont be easy. but seriously, what do you propose? scorched earth? glass palestine area and salt the earth?


What I propose, is indeed a two state solution, with Gaza and the West bank under the PLO. But what you refuse to accept is the fact that Israel is actually ready to do that. But it is the Hamas that is stopping it from happening. Egypt and Jordan dont wanna have anything to do with this conflict. This is why they have rejected their right to take back Gaza and West Bank and signed peace with Israel. They have washed their hands.

So before anything proceeds, I would propose that the Hamas is dead and gone. But will it? The situation is far too complex.

and what will it take to dismantle HAMAS in the easiest possible way?

completely destroy iran? - too difficult.
military incursion? - dont make me laugh, you give HAMAS credence for their cause
MORE MILITARY INCURSIONS? - youve already tried that israel.
EVEN MOAR MILTRY INCUZONZ? -no.
embargo ensuring the destitute lifestyle which encourages youths to turn to extremism? - i would suggest they stop doing that
taking the first steps to peace, ensuring you are the one extending the hand to the palestinian people, make moves to demonstrate hamas are no longer needed and that the far more moderate PLO are superior to govern palestine thus draining hamas of the support they need? - hahaha crazy talk. no. it makes sense.

as i said, israel has to take all the first steps because they are in the position that enables them to do so. you cant wait on hamas, an organisation that wants you destroyed, to be reasonable.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:25 am 
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Again you are missing the crucial point Ducky. Israel can extend its hand to the Palestinian people, but they dont need to deal with the Hamas for that. They can deal with the PLO and PLO will gladly get into negotiations with Israel. Israel has done it in the past. In the form of the Oslo accords, the 2005 disengagement plan etc., How successful have they been? Not successful. BECAUSE the Hamas wouldn't let them succeed.

According to the Hamas, Israel is NOT a legitimate state. According to them Israel is a state formed by snatching land from the locals, and therefore, their ONLY solution to the issue is an uncompromising stance. A stance that is perfectly explained in their charter, which I will quote again:

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion of Islam"

And by Palestine they dont mean, Gaza and the West Bank, they mean Gaza, West Bank and Israel. So you see, you cannot extend your hand to someone that wants to cut it off. That doesnt consider you, your loved ones as worthy to live. Its just not possible. For Israel to even start considering Hamas as anything legal, Hamas should come out and accept that Israel is a legitimate state. Which they absolutely wont do. And will oppose any group and hurt any group be it Arab or otherwise, that recognizes and tries to negotiate with Israel.

Therefore as of now, there is just no solution to the conflict. Its the sad but hard truth. The Hamas HAS to change its stance, but that wont happen just by Israel extending the olive branch. It will happen when the Hamas wakes up and realizes that Israel is reality and their struggle is a dream.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:42 am 
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so for peace you are suggesting we rely entirely on an organisation to change their stance that you yourself say are unwavering in their convictions and their stance.

really? wtf?

surely you can understand why i suggest that israel destroy hamas by ignoring them and dealing through humanitarian efforts with the palestinian people directly or through a moderate like the PLO

you cant destroy them with force, using force legitimises their cause and strengthens their numbers.

mfreak wrote:
... <Hamas'> ONLY solution to the issue is an uncompromising stance.

mfreak wrote:
The Hamas HAS to change its stance

no really, usually you are rational and follow a logical process but i think you missed a step here.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:29 pm 
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No, what am saying is, that presently there is absolutely NO solution for this issue. How do you ignore the Hamas? The Hamas rules Gaza. Which is part of this Palestinian state. How do you ignore an organization, that sends missiles, that are increasingly getting mordern day by day and do something for the Palestinian people? You have to understand the place of Hamas, in the hearts of the Palestinian people in the first place.

This is one of the crucial mistakes the US made when they took on the Taliban. 10 years later, the Taliban still exists. Why? Because you are not fighting an entity, you are fighting an entity that is tied into the culture of that region. The Hamas cannot be ignored, because the Palestinians consider them heroes. They consider the Hamas as representing their religion, culture and consider them their voice. So how do you help these people ignoring the Hamas? Its absolutely impractical.

The PLO can be convinced. But the PLO is in the West Bank. And they themselves are not as powerful as the Hamas is.

This is why Israel follows this brutal way of containing the situation. They go in there, bomb everything to *CENSORED*, and terrorize them. It creates a humanitarian crisis. So everything stops for a few years. When it starts again, they do it again. I know this is ineffective, but you have to understand you are dealing with maniacs. You cannot circumvent them in that place. Gaza is like what 50 km long and 10 km wide? 5 million people there, supporting Hamas. How do you circumvent them? Its just not possible.

Therefore, IF AT ALL there CAN be any solution in the future, the only way would be for the Hamas to change its stance. Because seriously, even if Israel DID circumvent the Hamas and lets say, they even create a seperate state of Palestine, what guarantee do you have that the terrorist attacks wont continue? Absolutely nothing. Cuz the Hamas wants not just Gaza and the West Bank, but the whole of Israel to be replaced with a Palestinian state. The conflict will start once again and nothing will change.

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