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 Post subject: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:15 pm 
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Thoughts? Any argument for either side? Is there any solution to this?

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:19 pm 
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2 nation state, which cant happen under israel's stern embargo issues. at least settlements on the westbank and getting shut down

yes, palestine hates israel and israel hates palestine. but there are people on both sides that dont want to immediately kill the other.

israel has to take the first steps, as a showcase of good will.

you cant just claim all of the areas as your own promised land, the palestinians are living there and forcefully getting them out results in resentment results in violence.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:26 pm 
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I am on the side of Israel on this one. And that too pretty strongly. The first thing the world fails to realize is the extent of damage cross border terrorism can cause. Only 2 countries in the world understand what cross border terrorism is all about, and that is India and Israel. Israel to a larger extent because of its small size.

Now, there are a few things here:

1. Palestine was never a country or a state historically. The region that is now Israel, Jordan, Yemen, Palestine etc, was ruled by the Ottoman Empire before WW1. After its defeat in the WW1, Britain took control of the region, and promised, present day Israel and Jordan, as a land for the Jews.

2. However because of complications, in 1948, the UN recommended a 2 state solution. Israel accepted it, but the rest of the Arab countries did not, and because of it war broke out. Which Israel won. Present day Gaza stayed with Egypt...I think, and West bank was taken over by Jordan. This war totally negated the validity of the UN resolution. But by then Israel was recognized by every country and became a fully established nation.

3. The Arab nations, took a hostile policy toward Israel, and in 1967, took the Khartoum resolution, according to which there would be no negotiations with Israel, no peace with Israel and no recognition of Israel. This was followed by the Six Day war, in which Israel took Golan Heights, West bank from Jordan and the Sinai desert from Egypt. This became the occupied territory. Though Sinai was returned to Egypt eventually a decade or so later.

Fast forward to today, you have Hamas and the Hezbollah, who are hailed as freedom fighters by many, but in reality are nothing but foreign funded terrorist groups. The Hamas charter says:

The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.

So if you look at it, even if Israel took the first steps, which it did on many occassions, these groups wont let that happen. As of now, the Hamas is in Gaza, the PLA is in West Bank. Palestine itself is divided. While the PLA might have a more practical approach toward the issue, the Hamas wants to literally, kill every Jew. They dont want a 2 state solution, they want it all. Which means we gotta have ourselves another holocaust. On top of this is the fact that the Arabs hate each other. There is no solidarity. For example, the millions of Jewish refugees were all assimilated into Israel and they live happily now. The Palestinians that got displaced in the independence war, are still displaced, are still refugees and the UN has a special definition just for these refugees, in that any offspring of these displaced Palestinians, will have refugee status. So from 500,000 they have grown to a size of 5 million or so today. This isnt fair.

So here are the complications of a 2 state solution:

1. Is Palestine capable of being a seperate country - NO. Cuz, who will rule Palestine? Fatah? PLA? Hamas?
2. This nation HAS to recognize Israel as a legitimate state. Will they do that? NO. Even if they did, they will stand divided once again.
3. What is the guarantee, that this new state wont sponsor terrorism once again against Israel? What if groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, who are funded and armed openly by Iran dont stop their activities?
4. Will this newly formed state, let Israel have a say in its internal affairs? And this is very important. For Israels security. I dont think so.

Apart from this the only thing that I am against Israel is its war crimes. There have been many. Even Israeli soldiers talk about it in the BreaktheSilence website - http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/

But what can I say. Its probably through fear and brutality that you can control the situation there. For example in Kashmir, the Indian Army has special powers. Like shoot to kill on suspicion. Which is misused day in and day out. But we restrict terrorism to just Kashmir using this brutal method. Am against this, but the situation just doesnt improve to make anything better.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:01 pm 
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All I know is what I learned from in Social Studies class which you summed it up here and much more :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:05 pm 
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Thank-you, Allen for explaining both sides of the story.. It is very much appreciated.

You guys need to understand that the media/news seldom tells the entire truth and that you shouldn't take sides unless you've heard BOTH sides of the story. Thank-you again Allen.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:42 pm 
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consider this. how many countries recognise palestine as its own state?
roughly 2/3 countries do.

so palestine wont recognise israel and israel wont recognise palestine.

2 state solution is still the only legitimate solution, the other being allowing israel to encroach and take over palestinian homes, evict them, a little white phosphorous for good measure and then they have a small strip of land and one monumental problem with its neighbours.

it matters not that palestine wasnt a country or a state historically. the people there align themselves with palestine, believe they are palestinians, are recognised by 2/3 of the countries as palestine.


hamas are elected by the palestinians by an overwhelming majority. apparently they spend a lot of money on hospitals and represent the will of the people there.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:08 am 
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Sure, but that doesnt answer my questions above. What if Hamas does not allow the 2 state solution? Who will rule this new state of Palestine? Hamas wants ALL of Israel. One Egyptian dude told me, that the reason they dont agree with Israels legitimacy, is because the Jews in Israel have European ancestory and are not native to that land. But we all know, how EU treated Jews.

The Hamas might be elected by the Palestinians, but they also forced their way up, by getting rid of the Fatah. Probably they have legitimacy only if the Palestinians stay poor and miserable, so they probably intend to keep it that way.

Its because of lack of solidarity and lack of representation by a single party, that Palestine I feel, is not yet ready to become a separate nation. Heck we could have a 3 state solution, Gaza with the Hamas, West Bank with PLA. OR, maybe give Gaza to Egypt and West bank to Jordan. But trust me Egypt and Jordan dont wanna get themselves in this mess. They just dont care. But only when it comes to being against Israel, they step up and condemn it. lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:35 am 
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http://www.cfr.org/israel/hamas/p8968#p6
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"Approximately 90 percent of its work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities," writes the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz.

hamas is on top there because the people in palestine love them. the palestinians are poor and miserable, the trade embargoes enacted by israel to prevent weapon smuggling ensures they remain poor and miserable and from this misery, hamas is working on schools and hospitals. you can see where the support and resentment stems from.

if israel makes moves to legitimise palestine. offers long standing peace. the palestinian people obviously will be apprehensive, but far more willing to make moves towards peace. although a lot of the source of violence is coming from palestine, i think its israel's duty to take the first step, because they can.

jew hating is as old as time, the whole notion of the UN handing out middle eastern land to solve their problems is a bit off (yes, that many jews is considered a problem when most of europe has deep rooted anti semitism)

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:14 am 
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Sure I never said the Hamas is not loved by the people in Gaza. But what they also do is delegitimize their claims. See, the Palestinians are an oppressed group. Illiterate, poor with no source of income. These kind of people can be very easily manipulated, by building a few hospitals, or homes. And of course these hamas dudes go and hide inside the very same buildings they build and launch rockets at Israel, and then when Israel comes up with an airstrike on the building, they blame Israel of human rights violations. When there is no other way, Israel can fight, when these guys are hiding amongst the civilians.

Secondly, you totally ignored my quote on the Hamas charter. The hamas might be anything, a militant group, a terrorist group, a political party. To me its a terrorist group. But, their charter wants Israel Gone. They wont accept a 2 state solution. They want Israel dead. All Jews gone. And they want an Islamic state in the region. Therefore they are not a group with whom you can negotiate.

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jew hating is as old as time, the whole notion of the UN handing out middle eastern land to solve their problems is a bit off (yes, that many jews is considered a problem when most of europe has deep rooted anti semitism)


Yes this is one reason why I support the Idea of Israel in the middle east. Think about it. For thousands of years, Jews have tried integrating with societies they lived in. Societies where they were allowed to live peacefully have always prospered, not because Jews are chosen people,but because they put a lot of emphasis on education and higher studies etc., But throughout history, and most recently in Europe in early 20th Century, with the onset of Nazism, they have been tortured, humiliated and killed just because they were Jews. We all know this is unfair. The situation today is not any better today. Most of Europe is still anti-semitic. If the situation is right, and a man like Hitler pops up again, Europeans will do what they do best - KILL. This time though I think it will be the Muslims. I dont mean all Europeans, or I dont mean to stereotype, am just speaking generally given that countries like Sweden, Norway, France all have only about 10% approval rating for Israel.

So its only fair, that Jews get a homeland for themselves. A land that is extremely tiny but one that has historical significance. Others couldn't guarantee their protection and safety, so now they will take care of themselves. And they will do it at all costs. Its only fair.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel and Palestine Territory
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:37 am 
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mfreak wrote:
Sure I never said the Hamas is not loved by the people in Gaza. But what they also do is delegitimize their claims. See, the Palestinians are an oppressed group. Illiterate, poor with no source of income. These kind of people can be very easily manipulated, by building a few hospitals, or homes. And of course these hamas dudes go and hide inside the very same buildings they build and launch rockets at Israel, and then when Israel comes up with an airstrike on the building, they blame Israel of human rights violations. When there is no other way, Israel can fight, when these guys are hiding amongst the civilians.


90% of expenditure is unlike any terrorist organisation i know off, are you able to find a comparative rate from another terrorist organisation, its not a little. and yes, hamas use human shields, its well documented.

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Secondly, you totally ignored my quote on the Hamas charter. The hamas might be anything, a militant group, a terrorist group, a political party. To me its a terrorist group. But, their charter wants Israel Gone. They wont accept a 2 state solution. They want Israel dead. All Jews gone. And they want an Islamic state in the region. Therefore they are not a group with whom you can negotiate.

no, no i didnt ignore it, i stated that hamas wont take the first move which is why israel has to take the first step. by doing so, no, they wont win over hamas, but perhaps destabilize hamas' hold on the area due to the benevolent gesture. make the palestinian people want to kill israel just a little less and that charter has a little less legitimacy. at least it is an offered solution to the complex conflict. a solution you havent provided.

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