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what are you
for 64%  64%  [ 39 ]
against 28%  28%  [ 17 ]
undecided 8%  8%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 61
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 Post subject: Re: Death penalty
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:35 pm 
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I were gonna post on this as a response as a Norwegian on Breivik as he made the question about death penalty come up here in Norway, but I see that you have already started discussing that.

Today has been a pretty sadening day, I don't watch much TV or listen to radio, so didn't really know the exact date for it till my sister came home and said they had watched the trail at school. Didn't hit me much then till I started talking to someone about it as he wondered about Breivik. He also came to the conclusion that many draws, that he should be put to death for what he has done. But despite the hatred I feel towards him and how much my emotions have been messing with my head today, I still can't say yes to death penalty. And especially not in the Norwegian court where he will be judged.

(You can skip this paregraph, this is more a rant about how the Norwegian justice system shouldn't change because of him)
Spoiler:
We currently don't have penalty, and have a max of 21, unless you have concidered a threat to society, in which case you do another sentence as long as the first one, up to 5 times. So the chances of him getting out is small. As for intuducing death penalty in Norway due to him I am even more against it. Death penalty wouldn't be used often, but if it does happen, be sure that his name would be brought up in that connection, or anything else in connection with death penalty, making him immortal in more ways than he already is in Norwegian history, there is no need to expand his legacy.


Even when you have commited something as cruel as what he has done, hurt so many. The thoughts of vengance should not controll the justice system, justice should.
"A martyr (Greek: μάρτυς, mártys, "witness"; stem μάρτυρ-, mártyr-) is somebody who suffers persecution and death for refusing to renounce, or accept, a belief or cause, usually religious."
I'm strongly against creating martyrs, which especially this case would because of how much attention it has gained. The better way to solve it is to lock him up, for ever and let him fall to the back of our memory. I know that at least us living in Norway will never be able to forget it, o matter how many years pass by and it will be in our history for ever. But even so, the majority of the population is against death penalty, even in such extreme causes like this.

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 Post subject: Re: Death penalty
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:50 pm 
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I watched a video online about a homeless guy in norway (he was german). I'm sure he would appreciate 3 meals a day, tv, video games, and being able to live in doors.

Homeless guy living under a bridge in a little fort he has built up out of garbage, hasn't killed anyone, eats food others have thrown away and makes money from begging.

Killer of 77 people, mostly children. Lives inside a warm building. Eats 3 meals a day. He doesn't do any of the cooking. His clothes are washed for him. He has a TV and a computer. He also gets to play video games.

Point 1. If the homeless guy decides to go on a killing spree, his living standards will improve. This fundamentally isn't right.

Point 2. How much money is spent on Breivik's food, clothes, tv, computer, electricity usage over the rest of his lifetime? Not much to make a difference, it wouldn't change anything... Unless you are the homeless guy I mentioned above.


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 Post subject: Re: Death penalty
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:17 am 
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Quote:
I watched a video online about a homeless guy in norway (he was german). I'm sure he would appreciate 3 meals a day, tv, video games, and being able to live in doors.

Homeless guy living under a bridge in a little fort he has built up out of garbage, hasn't killed anyone, eats food others have thrown away and makes money from begging.


Homeless guy in NORWAY??? Hard to believe. Anyway...

Quote:
Killer of 77 people, mostly children. Lives inside a warm building. Eats 3 meals a day. He doesn't do any of the cooking. His clothes are washed for him. He has a TV and a computer. He also gets to play video games.

Point 1. If the homeless guy decides to go on a killing spree, his living standards will improve. This fundamentally isn't right.

Point 2. How much money is spent on Breivik's food, clothes, tv, computer, electricity usage over the rest of his lifetime? Not much to make a difference, it wouldn't change anything... Unless you are the homeless guy I mentioned above.



So to improve the homeless guy's condition, how would putting Breivik to death help? Unless you are assuming that the money spent on Breivik directly makes money not available for the homeless guy, which is clearly not the case. To improve conditions of people under poverty, the government should take steps. But the death penalty is not going to make it easier for the government to improve conditions of poor people. Either that, or you are trying to convince people by trying to point out an injustice. But your example is wrong. A homeless guy suffering, does not justify capital punishment. They just arent related.

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 Post subject: Re: Death penalty
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:19 am 
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Diazepam wrote:
I watched a video online about a homeless guy in norway


i call bull shizzles.

norway, like the other scandinavian countries, has one of the best welfare systems in the world.
im with mfreak on this one, actual actual homelessness is quite difficult to acheive in norway. you actually have to try to be homeless.


Diazepam wrote:
Not to mention drugs and firearms are harder to obtain. That with far less poverty, and generally happier population. The crime rates aren't lower because prison is more fun their than in the USA.

in USA there is a war against drugs. you have youths in USA lets say 18. they are trading and moving weed about among known friends when caught by police.

suddenly he is thrust from middle class supporting family to a non friendly environment surrounded by criminals. hardened by criminals. talking to criminals. the months wear on as the jail that punishes the youth hardens him up since thats what is necessary since the jails arent soft or friendly. when he is released, he has a bunch of new associates, a bunch of new tips, a crime record that will not allow him to get certain jobs and most importantly, a hardened personality built up and supported by constant exposure with other criminals.


@sabnc
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0923110.html
only just better, try again. norways prison systems are geared towards rehabilitation. moreover, repeat offending rates are considerably lower
recidivism. new word learnt today, recidivism rate is the rate at which offenders re offend.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 02,00.html
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/0 ... y-is-safe/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/20 ... me-nation/
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- Norway Has Some Of The Lowest Murder Rates In The World: In 2009, Norway had 0.6 intentional homicides per 100,000 people. In the same year, the United States had 5 murders per 100,000 people, meaning that the U.S. proportionally has 8 times as many homicides.
- Norway’s Incarceration Rate Is A Fraction Of That Of The United States: 71 out of every 100,000 Norwegian citizens is incarcerated. In the United States, 743 out of every 100,000 citizens was incarcerated in 2009. The U.S. has the world’s highest incarceration rate.
- Norway’s Prisoner Recidivism Rate Is Much Lower Than The United States’:The recidivism rate for prisoners in Norway is around 20 percent. Meanwhile, it’s estimated that 67 percent of America’s prisoners are re-arrested and 52 percent are re-incarcerated.

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 Post subject: Re: Death penalty
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:44 am 
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Quote:
suddenly he is thrust from middle class supporting family to a non friendly environment surrounded by criminals. hardened by criminals. talking to criminals. the months wear on as the jail that punishes the youth hardens him up since thats what is necessary since the jails arent soft or friendly. when he is released, he has a bunch of new associates, a bunch of new tips, a crime record that will not allow him to get certain jobs and most importantly, a hardened personality built up and supported by constant exposure with other criminals.


Its called becoming a product of the system. So when the system can create individuals with negative attitudes, why cant we reverse that and create rehabilitated individuals?

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 Post subject: Re: Death penalty
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:23 am 
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Speaking Logically:

No human being has the right to play god, and end another humans life.

Killing someone because they killed someone is a barbaric way of handing problems, and one of the same infected ideologies to why we STILL have war.

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 Post subject: Re: Death penalty
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:29 am 
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Diazepam wrote:
I watched a video online about a homeless guy in norway (he was german). I'm sure he would appreciate 3 meals a day, tv, video games, and being able to live in doors.

Homeless guy living under a bridge in a little fort he has built up out of garbage, hasn't killed anyone, eats food others have thrown away and makes money from begging.

Can you show me that video as I think I might know who you're talking about as he chose to live like that to make art. He were originally gonna make art with ice, but because there weren't any ice, he used garbage instead. But might have been another guy. But I'll jsut point out that its close to impossible to be homeless if you're in Norway legally unless you choose to be, or absolutely refuse to work.

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 Post subject: Re: Death penalty
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:58 am 
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I don't have the link anymore, but it was just an example. Both examples of seriel killer and homeless guy happened to be from norway. If you assume the homeless guy and the seriel killer were from Poland, the main point would still apply. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was talking about norway exclusively.


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 Post subject: Re: Death penalty
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:41 pm 
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This is getting pretty intense... but i think two things are sure...

no one wants a innocent person to die ...

either cause they dont have evidences to prove him rit... or they dont have evidences to prove to detain the real culprit...

Death Penalty is one thing... Justice is another....

If you demand a death exchange of death in exchange... it cant be overlooked you are no different... but surely they has to be an efficient way of dealing with criminals... to make them fear what they do and love what they ought to....

OF Course Only a Genius.. Social Worker can come up with a great solution but well ... I m sure he has to become some country's president or something to make his point clear internationally....

So well... luck and luck dont go side by side... so its impossible for a luck of genius to overlap with luck of a real high authority....

But well, its great to hear people want to do something for society genuinely rather than to think just upheave their status....

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 Post subject: Re: Death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:57 am 
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Diazepam wrote:
I don't have the link anymore, but it was just an example. Both examples of seriel killer and homeless guy happened to be from norway. If you assume the homeless guy and the seriel killer were from Poland, the main point would still apply. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was talking about norway exclusively.

no, but the topic was norway justice system which has no death sentence, and its short comings (how to deal with brevik) compared with the US justice system with many states having the death sentence and its short comings.

norway is incredibly different from the US, i repeat, you actually have to TRY to be homeless in norway, the benefits and safety nets there are top notch and world renowned. like simmen said, try to find the link, very interested in this actually happening. homelessness in norway is difficult enough for 3 users on this forum to actually see it happening. its like a once in a lifetime opportunity!

as for you reasoning that it would be the same in any other country
no, it wouldnt. we are talking about developed countries here because they can afford to care about the people, care about humanity at a level far beyond developing countries can. for one, there is the matter of welfare. i say its difficult in norway to be homeless not because of an over abundance of houses growing out of the ground, i say its difficult due to the welfare received. likewise, prisoner conditions would be no where near as comfortable as brevik without the country having first attended to the needy (the jobless).

poland. i dont know about poland, but you cant compare apples and oranges, the jails in poland arent quite the jails in norway nor is the welfare system.

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