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 Post subject: Screaming Matches; Healthcare
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:56 am 
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Just because it's happening all over the USSA, I bring the Town Hall discussions onto BD.

Now for my opinions, HEALTHCARE SHOULD NOT BE REFORMED! It should be tweaked so those who lost their jobs and seniors can get healthcare, but Reforming this would progress America into deeper Socialism.

First of all, at least 40 million of the say 46 million uninsured are there because they don't want to be insured or they are illegals, the rest of the uninsured (6 million in my figures) are there for reasons the democrats have been pasting all over us for decades.
And just to crank the heater on a 40°C day, CONGRESS, who are trying to pass this 3 mile high healthcare bill, won't apply for this healthcare, so they can get better care, and the GOVERNMENT will control healthcare, so for seniors, they could be rejected and left to rot.
More Plotter opinion: Wait times will be longer, Hospital service will be the equivalent of a one star Motor Motel in South Chicago, and there will be Nurse shortages. I know this because I live in a place where Healthcare = Gov't owned, and the wait list is about the same length as the distance from Los Angeles to Cincinnati.

And BTW, I think the euthanasia claims are a little too far flung, but get my point?




Discuss

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 Post subject: Re: Screaming Matches; Healthcare
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:40 pm 
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Plotter wrote:

Discuss

unfortunately i have to ignore you, i cant understand your english, perhaps its cause im asian.

universal healthcare stems from the basic human right to life.

who are you to reject such notion on the grounds that socialism will increase or something something. i didnt get your point.

have you seen the michael moore film on this issue? under bush, guantanamo bay was the only place in USA with universal healthcare. the terrorists get it, you dont.

human right to basic health...

lets look to europe, they have a very successful federalized healthcare in many countries. perhaps canada is slow. i hear that the british have a good system as do the french and germans, unsure about the others but i know europe is pretty socialist so a far amount of countries would have universal healthcare

Australia has really long lines to the hospital which brought in the call for a federalized healthcare system rather then one owned by the states.

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 Post subject: Re: Screaming Matches; Healthcare
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:43 pm 
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Universal Healthcare would make our taxes skyrocket, and we can barely afford to pay them already :S

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 Post subject: Re: Screaming Matches; Healthcare
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:03 am 
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I thought the government was just gonna print more money off the presses...

Which would suck anyways thanks to inflation like crazy (like what will be destroying the dollar soon, despite what the fed thinks it can do to stop it... which, btw, the fed is unconstitutional... I should make a topic for that...)

Honestly though, government is the single best entity at being a pure monopoly at anything. There is next to no incentive for them to cut costs, improve care, or give adequate coverage. Actually, the only incentive is when it comes to reelection time and the challenger promises "change" in the coverage (although the trends are still spiraling downwards.)

That is the exact reason why I don't want government run healthcare.

But there are still more reasons :P

Like how I don't believe it is consitutional... (but I haven't taken the time to look fully into that yet... I should do that soon)

or how private businesses (when competition is allowed) do a much better job of increasing coverage and giving better care (as shown by capitalistic policies throughout history)

And there is more, but I just noticed its midnight and I don't really care about saying the rest (because there WILL be more posts :P) so.... gudnight!


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 Post subject: Re: Screaming Matches; Healthcare
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:09 am 
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msomeoneelsez wrote:
or how private businesses (when competition is allowed) do a much better job of increasing coverage and giving better care (as shown by capitalistic policies throughout history)

And there is more, but I just noticed its midnight and I don't really care about saying the rest (because there WILL be more posts :P) so.... gudnight!

private business will be there, it will just change from state run healthcare to federal run healthcare.
such a move would result in universal healthcare. the taxes would still go to the same hospitals, only that it would be centrally run.

i hope no one else got such a bad misconception.

private business remains. univeral healthcare cant cover specific needs like certain surgerys or cancer cover. (some cancer treatments cost up to half a million dollars. it would be unreasonable to put repeated burdens on the taxpayer). private healthcare can cover the various things and can remain competitive with bonuses or cover that is better then the bare basic like free prescirption glasses every year, dental check ups, cover for sporting injuries. they are still there, and they still remain competitive, its just that the entire populus has access to the basic right of health.

ummm... illegals still cant USE federal owned healthcare more then once :roll: its like saying illegals drain off welfare when they arent allowed anything based on the system which they dont contribute to via taxes. :lol: is this going to be another topic that plotter will be forced to step down and eat his own words?

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 Post subject: Re: Screaming Matches; Healthcare
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:13 am 
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Do you have any idea how the system currently works?

The drastic change that is being asked for will eliminate private business because so many people will just choose the federal health care... which everyone pays for... so it will be a continual downhill slide of people choosing federal of private.

Look, this is all basic economics... the problems arise when so many people choose federal that the true cost of such a system comes out, when many many businesses have been driven out of business already.

So no, they cannot possibly remain competitive. Not until after govt. has monopolized it anyways.


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 Post subject: Re: Screaming Matches; Healthcare
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:12 am 
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msomeoneelsez wrote:
Do you have any idea how the system currently works?

not 100% sure about yours, but aussie health care is a bunch of hospitals run by the state, the state receives funding from the government based on populus and need. private hospitals offer more comprehensive cover with less waiting lists often offering bonuses that set it apart from the "medicare" state run system.

The drastic change that is being asked for will eliminate private business because so many people will just choose the federal health care... which everyone pays for... so it will be a continual downhill slide of people choosing federal of private.

i just told you why private business would live, its like saying government run public transport would mean the end of taxis. you know already everyone pays for the healthcare, only the funding is distributed by the state rather then the government. federal run healthcare would offer only limited healthcare, health, a basic human right would be covered.

Look, this is all basic economics... the problems arise when so many people choose federal that the true cost of such a system comes out, when many many businesses have been driven out of business already.

you still havent mentioned how. im not 100% sure about your system, but im pretty sure there is the general state run hospitals using federal given funding since not all americans can afford private cover. do they force private companies out of business?

So no, they cannot possibly remain competitive. Not until after govt. has monopolized it anyways.

you cant monopolize a basic right.

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 Post subject: Re: Screaming Matches; Healthcare
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:44 pm 
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Do you have any idea how the system currently works?

not 100% sure about yours, but aussie health care is a bunch of hospitals run by the state, the state receives funding from the government based on populus and need. private hospitals offer more comprehensive cover with less waiting lists often offering bonuses that set it apart from the "medicare" state run system.

Most hospitals are either state or federally funded/subsidized. The point isn't about the facilities themselves, but rather the care provided and the cost of that.

The drastic change that is being asked for will eliminate private business because so many people will just choose the federal health care... which everyone pays for... so it will be a continual downhill slide of people choosing federal of private.

i just told you why private business would live, its like saying government run public transport would mean the end of taxis. you know already everyone pays for the healthcare, only the funding is distributed by the state rather then the government. federal run healthcare would offer only limited healthcare, health, a basic human right would be covered.

The overhaul is in medical insurance, and as already stated, this affects the care provided and cost of the care.

So what is happening currently is that anyone can choose to either have insurance through a private company, or if they qualify to use state or federal insurance that doesn't cover nearly as much, but it is slightly subsidized by the govt. therefor it is cheaper (once again, if you qualify.)

Also, most people in America who don't have health insurance actually do qualify for those federal programs (and I believe there are some where it is "free" to them as well... much like food stamps? But Im not expert here) but they have not applied for it, or they decided to stay away from it all together.


Look, this is all basic economics... the problems arise when so many people choose federal that the true cost of such a system comes out, when many many businesses have been driven out of business already.

you still havent mentioned how. im not 100% sure about your system, but im pretty sure there is the general state run hospitals using federal given funding since not all americans can afford private cover. do they force private companies out of business?

This is a complicated economic subject to describe... So lets see if this makes sense :P

Right now those programs are based upon qualifications. So the market for the federal and state programs are quite limited. Even if Bill Gates wanted the federal coverage, he couldn't get it, he's just too darn rich. So those who don't qualify are forced to either go without health insurance, or they buy the private stuff.

However, if the overhaul is passed, that restriction will be eliminated, so people will go for what appears to be cheaper, the federal stuff. As said earlier though, once the taxes for everyone gets to be high enough (and so it is more expensive than the private insurance, and yes, that will happen) it will be too late because either most or all of the private care will have been eliminated.


So no, they cannot possibly remain competitive. Not until after govt. has monopolized it anyways.

you cant monopolize a basic right.

The ability to go to a doctor and receive care is a basic right? This argument that healthcare is a "basic right" is absolutely ludicrous to me... it may be a basic privilege, but no, it is not a right by any means. As for monopolizing it... haha, yeah, you can monopolize it.

In fact, just for the sake of that point, lets pretend that this bill is passed, and whether or not the economics really would work out in the favor of govt. being the only provider of care, somehow what I am saying about private business being eliminated actually happens.

Oh, crap... only one provider is left. They now have 100% of the market share. That by definition is a perfect monopoly.

That is also like how free speech can be monopolized by dictatorships to be only free speech for the currently in power regime. Ok, by definition it isn't free anymore, but do you get my point?


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 Post subject: Re: Screaming Matches; Healthcare
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:02 pm 
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msomeoneelsez wrote:
Most hospitals are either state or federally funded/subsidized. The point isn't about the facilities themselves, but rather the care provided and the cost of that.

thanks for explaining how your system works, ceebs searching it up myself and read 20 pages of documents when someone can summarize in 2 sentences.

The overhaul is in medical insurance, and as already stated, this affects the care provided and cost of the care.

So what is happening currently is that anyone can choose to either have insurance through a private company, or if they qualify to use state or federal insurance that doesn't cover nearly as much, but it is slightly subsidized by the govt. therefor it is cheaper (once again, if you qualify.)

Also, most people in America who don't have health insurance actually do qualify for those federal programs (and I believe there are some where it is "free" to them as well... much like food stamps? But Im not expert here) but they have not applied for it, or they decided to stay away from it all together.


if it is free to them now, how would federalizing it result in anything different?
there are plenty of stories here in australia where the current government backed system is full of holes, and some tragedies occur like a family with children who have diabetes but they cant afford the insulin since <insert slight medical complication that makes them ineligible>


This is a complicated economic subject to describe... So lets see if this makes sense :P

Right now those programs are based upon qualifications. So the market for the federal and state programs are quite limited. Even if Bill Gates wanted the federal coverage, he couldn't get it, he's just too darn rich. So those who don't qualify are forced to either go without health insurance, or they buy the private stuff.

However, if the overhaul is passed, that restriction will be eliminated, so people will go for what appears to be cheaper, the federal stuff. As said earlier though, once the taxes for everyone gets to be high enough (and so it is more expensive than the private insurance, and yes, that will happen) it will be too late because either most or all of the private care will have been eliminated.


would bill gates go for the free system when he knows that he isnt covered for many things? that although he can afford it, he would rather a waiting list then a private hospital bed?
private hospitals would not go out of business any less then they would go out of business because of state run hospitals
after that you go on with a slippery slope argument, if you dont know what that is, wiki it. "slippery slope". and refrain from using them, i wont be rebutting/refuting/discussing them.


The ability to go to a doctor and receive care is a basic right? This argument that healthcare is a "basic right" is absolutely ludicrous to me... it may be a basic privilege, but no, it is not a right by any means. As for monopolizing it... haha, yeah, you can monopolize it.
the human right to basic health. universal health care allows this.
it would only be monopolized if the federalizing covered cancer treatments, optometry, dentistry, put more funding in then the basic, gave cat scans to people who might just have a cold, provided excellent doctor to patient ratios. then it would be mingling with private insurance, but it doesnt. therefore the government wouldnt be able to monopolize it because... well mainly, cost.


In fact, just for the sake of that point, lets pretend that this bill is passed, and whether or not the economics really would work out in the favor of govt. being the only provider of care, somehow what I am saying about private business being eliminated actually happens.

"being the only provider of care," - fallicious.
i mentioned a couple times already how the private sector would be unaffected.


Oh, crap... only one provider is left. They now have 100% of the market share. That by definition is a perfect monopoly.

oh crap... MISTAKE?!?!

That is also like how free speech can be monopolized by dictatorships to be only free speech for the currently in power regime. Ok, by definition it isn't free anymore, but do you get my point?

thats an interesting form of monopoly.
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on a side note, Obama is going to them regions full of right winging crazys
they say that the bill encourages euthanasia, that every 5 years you would need to go up in front of a panel to tell you to kill yourself... stuff like that.
the same groups that blocked clinton's health reform is blocking obama's health reform. :/

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