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 Post subject: Re: morality
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:13 am 
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Nevyn wrote:
mrducky wrote:
lets say i murdered a person for a nice wallet, value, <$20. sure, the wallet is nice, but the overall emotional trauma suffered means it was immoral. say i murdered hitler and saved lives, value <$infinity. sure the murder was wrong, but the feeling at the end would be a good indicator of morality. and arent feelings just humans expressing morality?

no, one's feelings are a measure of one's empathy, which is separate from morality...

but ones empathy is based on morality, some vegans would be extremely empathetic to the plight of the chicken and support animal rights. my empathy does not distinguish that, and i merely support the animal's right to be tasty. can you not use empathy and emotions to gauge morality?

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so they have the moral high ground when killing and eating other humans?
is there no moral high ground?
but if there is no moral high ground, was the holocaust "bad"

moral high ground, as with the rest of the morals, is subjective. we only consider it 'bad' because sufficient numbers of us all agree that it is 'bad'. if enough of us agreed that it was 'cheese' instead, would it be Swiss, or maybe Cheddar...?

:D
made me smile

do you think an objective morality exists? a morality that is beyond humans, one that can look at the holocaust and determine whether or not it is good or bad?
or is there merely varying degrees of subjective morality. my morality might not agree with the objective morality but the objective morality would be the most unbiased. is morality in its very nature subjective?

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 Post subject: Re: morality
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:33 am 
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mrducky wrote:
but ones empathy is based on morality, some vegans would be extremely empathetic to the plight of the chicken and support animal rights. my empathy does not distinguish that, and i merely support the animal's right to be tasty. can you not use empathy and emotions to gauge morality?

so they have the moral high ground when killing and eating other humans?
is there no moral high ground?


empathy and morality are linked, but to say that empathy is based on morality... nah.

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[color=#40FF00]:D
made me smile

do you think an objective morality exists? a morality that is beyond humans, one that can look at the holocaust and determine whether or not it is good or bad?
or is there merely varying degrees of subjective morality. my morality might not agree with the objective morality but the objective morality would be the most unbiased. is morality in its very nature subjective?


yes, i would say that it is impossible to have a truly objective morality.
a moral is a judgment, whether or not it is a personal one or a society's one. to make a judgment, you need to have a judge...

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 Post subject: Re: morality
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:01 am 
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no offense to the topic creator but that's illogical to argue with.

What your raised to believe almost always stays with you in this type of society. You almost always take on your parents faith, habits, and social ideology. The sad honest truth is , everyone lives life in their own corner of the world. Reality is what you make it. The longer its rooted the hard it is to see passed it. Until eventually it becomes the walls that protect you from the outside world. Doesnt mean your own little world is any better, or worse. But you'll stay in your own bubble because u think you have full control. Unless your reality is that you dont have an control. See where i'm getting. Life is what you make it. As for morality? Well heck any man can justify the most inhumane of all things, but who are we to decide right and wrong, when we cant even get along with each other? We fight of things that sometimes don't have just one answer...its just opinions. Until we learn to control our own worlds we can begin to understand that of others.

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 Post subject: Re: morality
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:42 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: morality
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:35 pm 
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sharpshot233 wrote:
What your raised to believe almost always stays with you in this type of society. You almost always take on your parents faith, habits, and social ideology.

I have to disagree.... I was raised a conservative Jew by my parents and my dad votes republican. However, I am an atheist and find myself to generally agree with more democratic principles. When people are exposed to society, they are able to make decisions for themselves, based on the facts presented to them.

Quote:
The sad honest truth is , everyone lives life in their own corner of the world. Reality is what you make it. The longer its rooted the hard it is to see passed it. Until eventually it becomes the walls that protect you from the outside world. Doesnt mean your own little world is any better, or worse. But you'll stay in your own bubble because u think you have full control. Unless your reality is that you dont have an control. See where i'm getting. Life is what you make it. As for morality? Well heck any man can justify the most inhumane of all things, but who are we to decide right and wrong, when we cant even get along with each other? We fight of things that sometimes don't have just one answer...its just opinions. Until we learn to control our own worlds we can begin to understand that of others.


Now, not everyone lives in a bubble...

While some people do choose to seclude themselves, I find it morally wrong to group an entire society together as one mass, considering that there are always free thinkers out there. And when you talk of opinions, that is subjective morality. It is my opinion to think all murder is wrong, but the Aztecs regularly practiced human sacrifice. In their opinion, they were perfectly justified in taking another person's life.

I also have to contend the point that we must control our own world before we can understand the worlds of others. Just because I can't directly influence the direction that the society I live in goes, doesn't mean that I can't understand the hardships of a homeless child living in Congo. Now if you were to say that we must control our own society before we attempted to control the societies of others, then I would fully agree. If we don't have an organized and civil society, how can we expect others, that we would consider "lesser", to.

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 Post subject: Re: morality
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:00 am 
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I ask you to please read what i wrote again more clearly and slowly.

I said "almost", and "majority"...i never said anything absolute.

I agree with your aspect of things but u totally based your argument of the wrong grounds.

The only that could be considered close to that is:
"The sad honest truth is , everyone lives life in their own corner of the world. Reality is what you make it. "

But thats true. If you disagree simply look at it a different way. I'm not saying everyone lives inside a shell to protect them. I'm saying life is made up by how you view it. 100million people can have the exact event happen to them, and each one of them take it differently. Its about perspective.

I'm not saying if your parents 'were this' it makes 'you that.'

But sadly that is how a mass amount of us live life. We just take the cards life deals us instead of making up our own because we believe that's how its suppose to be done. If this were not true then you wouldn't see the things that play out in this world today.

Your statements about understanding are true:
My example being you can know something is not right even before experiencing it because it conflicts with your inner ideas, or emotions, or whatever you want to call it. It conflicts with the person you think you are.
That is how we determine right and wrong in this world today. Am i saying all human beings do this? Well no, but whether u do or not is for u to answer, not anyone else.

And i'm sorry to say this but "free thinkers" are a dying breed.

And as for society, my honest opinion is that modern soceity exists today in this state because it was built to tell people how others think they should live and act. If you think getting up everyday to go to school, get a job, and (if your a middle class or below) most likely never pay off the building you call home; is all their is to life: Then you got another thing coming.

Again this is not directed toward everyone. If u can contend/support this argument and say things that are just more than opinions or
what u hear on TV, then yes, you've taken the first step to having a free mind. But whether you support my statements or not, it still means nothing in reality. Because Life is what you make out of it. Bad or good, hopeful, or hopeless. You think before you feel, and never forget that.

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 Post subject: Re: morality
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:57 am 
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there is a world of difference between dealing with what life deals you, and morality though...

ethics and morality can certainly colour your perspective on life, but some people are just too darn lazy to do anything about it...

take all those people who done donate $1/day to the starving kids in africa etc... are they less good than those who do? or are they a) not able to afford it, b) too lazy to do anything about it, or c) both of the above?

taking any form of action (even inaction is a choice) required both a moral/ethical decision, and the willpower to actually do something.

a lot of good people are lazy. are they less good?
is a moderately good person, with ambivalent intent, who actually gets off their behind and does something any 'better' than a well intentioned, enthusiastic person, who is broke and disabled?

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 Post subject: Re: morality
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:28 am 
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U missed a good aspect though.

Of morality defines your perspective then that effects everything in your life.


How you see the world is how u deal with it. Life doesnt throw you problems people do. Life doesnt care if u live or die, people do. Our moral guide lines good or bad, or any perspective at all defines whether we take left or right in life. Has nothing to do with right and wrong. Because even that at times is up for arguement.

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 Post subject: Re: morality
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:48 am 
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sharpshot233 wrote:
Of morality defines your perspective then that effects everything in your life.


morality does influence perspective, for sure, but it doesnt have an effect unless you have the conscious intent to do something. apathy negates morality... doesnt matter what you think, if you cant be bothered doing anything about it.

Quote:
How you see the world is how u deal with it. Life doesnt throw you problems people do. Life doesnt care if u live or die, people do. Our moral guide lines good or bad, or any perspective at all defines whether we take left or right in life. Has nothing to do with right and wrong. Because even that at times is up for arguement.


actually, life does throw you problems. cause and effect. the world keeps spinning, whether you agree with that or not. ergo: things will happen that you have no control over. you can react to your situation, based on your decisions which are a filter for your morality, but it needs to be coupled with your determination before you can be said to influence anything.

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 Post subject: Re: morality
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:29 am 
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Cause and effect yes, but look at it in this light.

You do one thing that causes another.

Most people don't realize that small events in their lives cause larger happening in their lives. But what determines whether that event is good/bad or right/wrong, is up to the person. That's why i say life doesn't throw us problems. Cause life itself doesn't care. And half the people in it don't either. As long as they can make a living who cares whats beyond those walls right?
But again that's up to each person to think that way. True life situations can influence your choices, but a million people can go through the same events, and turn-out or resolve completely differently. Therefor turning back to perception. In lamer terms, things change based on how u look at it. And I completely agree with you on determination, or in other words motivation. But in a sense that too is determined by your perspective. Cause if u view something as hopeless you will lack motivation. If u think something is not worth your time, or your content where you are....or that matter you believe where u are in life is where u want to be/ then that may give the look/feel/idea of not having motivation(determination).

Again, Perspective.

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