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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:26 pm 
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i suck at debating.
But here it goes.



How are other "hetoro"poeple affected by same-sex marriage?
Not in a single way!
And why care about males wanting to marry other males (same for female)?
It does affect you!
So why care?
Why oppose it?

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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:28 pm 
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msomeoneelsez wrote:
The institution of marriage has existed for centuries, way earlier than the US, therefor it cannot possibly be a state based convention.


I think you are forgetting a small fact. The US government was not created in a vacum. The government was created with previous govnerments in mind.

One such aspect of previous governments was a concept of Nobility. Nobility was determined based on which family you belonged to. That family, was defined by births and marriages.

If the "Gates" family is to become the rules of Washington State, then who they marry needs to be known by the government.

Two things here.
1 For some reason, despite working against a monarchy and the concept of nobility, the founding documents did not remove the governments function in marriage and family structure/names.
2. Clearly in our day and age, since we no longer have any notions that governments govern towards a purpose, marriage is one of those things that the government should expunge from itself.


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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:29 pm 
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Who are we to say Homosexuals cannot get married? What gives us so much control over their own lives?


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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:33 pm 
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mrducky wrote:
marriage was once defined as the holy matrimony between a man and women, but marriage is becoming less regarded as a religious concept and with gay marriage, soon gender plays no role at all. im hoping that it doesnt play a role now.

marriage helps prevent polygamy and create more stable families.
im pretty sure that having a happy, (preferably) middle class stable family is the best pillar for growing a society based on industry and consumerism

marriage also allows for 2 incomes to join together as a net income and marriage is probably one of the reasons why couples can take out mortgages and banks can ensure that their combined income is more stable then a "fling".

marriage is important to society, since government has a part in running society then they would obviously stick their noses into the issue of marriage.


Why would you say that two people being married is more stable than polygamy?

The experiment has never been done to know if that is true or not.

If two incomes are good, wouldn't 10 be better? Wouldn't it make even more sense for people with similar financial goals to create corporations/families and pool their wealth together? (like say, people all living in the same apartment building for 30 years.)


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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:00 pm 
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apollo wrote:
Who are we to say Homosexuals cannot get married? What gives us so much control over their own lives?


Presumably the answer to that question would be.. "The government."


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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:02 pm 
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Daganev wrote:
apollo wrote:
Who are we to say Homosexuals cannot get married? What gives us so much control over their own lives?


Presumably the answer to that question would be.. "The government."



Exactly, the government should not presume to have so much control over their lives. And ours. And everyones. The government is basically sayiing "no, you can't be happy, but we expect you to pay taxes"


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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:05 pm 
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Yep - Selfish greedy **** - Ok no offence but I belive evveryones equal.

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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:23 pm 
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apollo wrote:
Daganev wrote:
apollo wrote:
Who are we to say Homosexuals cannot get married? What gives us so much control over their own lives?


Presumably the answer to that question would be.. "The government."



Exactly, the government should not presume to have so much control over their lives. And ours. And everyones. The government is basically sayiing "no, you can't be happy, but we expect you to pay taxes"



I don't understand.

How is the government stopping them from being happy?

Are there laws that prevent same sex people from living together? Any laws that say they can't share a bank account or pay joint taxes? No there isn't.

In California atleast, a "domestic partnership." has ALL of the same rights and privileges as a "marriage".

I think people might find this website interesting:

http://www.gaysdefendmarriage.com/


Oh and btw, if you want people to be happy, getting married shouldn't be part of the equation apparently :)

http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/03/17/ma ... index.html

edit: An even more relevant article...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01742.html

So what does "marriage" have to do with couples being happy or not?


edit2: From the gays for marriage website:

Quote:
So, can we now expect Jonathan Rauch to back away from same-sex marriage, now that the rationale he gave in the New York Times no longer works? Of course not. Because the marriage equality movement is not about getting happiness, or hospital visitation rights, or property inheritance rights, or any of the other “benefits” LGBT people are always talking about. If it were, we could probably work out a compromise that respects marriage while relieving the distress of same-sex couples. But the marriage equality movement is about boosting the self-esteem of gay men and lesbians, many of whom had a tough time growing up. And I’d be happy to stroke LGBT egos if the route under discussion wasn’t doing tremendous harm to a central institution in our society.



edit4": Wow this website is really damning, I never heard about most of this stuff before.
http://www.gaysdefendmarriage.com/category/lawsuits/
Quote:
But “marriage equality” advocates don’t want that. They’re afraid their ideas about the supposed federal constitutional right to same-sex marriage won’t be convincing enough. So they have done everything possible to stop well-qualified jurists like Ruth Bader Ginsburg and John Roberts from ever being able to referee this dispute. They’ve chosen instead to go the state-by-state route, so that when they finally impose their definition of marriage on the whole nation, we’ll be so used to it we’ll barely notice.

When Christopher Hammer and Arthur Smelt, a gay couple from Orange County, California, filed a federal lawsuit to overturn the Defense of Marriage Act and declare a federal constitutional right to marry, several LGBT groups including Equality California and the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund asked the liberal Ninth Circuit to throw out the gay couple’s case.

Jennifer C. Pizer, senior counsel for Lambda Legal, was candid about her group’s reasoning: “Our carefully considered view is that it’s important to be taking steps in the jurisdictions where we can succeed and have a series of successes … before calling the ultimate question for the entire country.”

Who elected Jennifer Pizer queen lesbian? The LGBT movement is profoundly undemocratic. Many groups focused on equality like NOW and the NAACP elect their leaders. But overwhelmingly gay and lesbian groups appoint their leaders, and those appointments generally go to two types of people: major donors, and “affirmative action” slots for categories like transgender people and people of color. When I belonged to the Human Rights Campaign Fund in the early 1990s, every member did get to vote for the board of directors - but there was usually exactly one candidate for each board position! If Pizer’s group wants to pursue state cases, that’s fine. But blocking the federal claim of a loving gay couple is unacceptable.

Hammer has his own theory why organizations supposedly there to help him would stab him in the back instead: “If we win, that sinks all their fundraising - and that destroys all their cases because we’d all be equal in the law across the United States…. they don’t want us to win.”

The couple’s attorney, Richard C. Gilbert, said “Our case can’t hurt state cases because state cases are decided under state constitutions…. What other group has said don’t fight, we’ll lose? Even if you lose you can make progress with an issue. Would Lambda Legal had said to Dred Scott, ‘Mr. Scott, you’re a slave, so don’t sue because you’re going to lose?’”


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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:44 pm 
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Marriage is a religious issue, not teh government's issue, o ya, the governments always nosy,especilly now that the USSA has been formed!

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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:53 pm 
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Did you know that in California you don't have to be married to legally change your last name?

Also, you can legally get your gender changed and your birth certificate changed to reflect your new gender. And it will be illegal for anyone to bring up your old birth certificate. Fun facts!


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