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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:17 pm 
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mchl481 wrote:
Look heres the LAW:

The Defense of Marriage Act, or DOMA, is the short title of a federal law of the United States passed on September 21, 1996 as Public Law No. 104-199, 110 Stat. 2419. Its provisions are codified at 1 U.S.C. § 7 and 28 U.S.C. § 1738C. The law has two effects:

1. No state (or other political subdivision within the United States) needs to treat a relationship between persons of the same sex as a marriage, even if the relationship is considered a marriage in another state.
2. The federal government defines marriage as a legal union exclusively between one man and one woman.

The bill was passed by Congress by a vote of 85-14 in the Senate[1] and a vote of 342-67 in the House of Representatives,[2] and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on September 21, 1996.


What Americans these days have a very hard time thinking about is whether or not the law is legal.

What I mean by that is whether or not it is Constitutionally accepted. I firmly believe that there is no case for why this law should have been passed, no matter how much it makes sense. It does not follow the Constitution at all.

And honestly, if it really is that great of a law, then it should have been made into an amendment to the Constitution, not a bill. If these laws really make that much sense, then they would have no trouble passing as an amendment. That is the beauty of this entire system... if it really is a good thing, it can pass easily.

But for now, thanks to the politicians ignoring the Constitution, practice dictates that any law that is passed is ok.

There is another argument here though, the Supreme Court is supposed to challenge these unconstitutional laws (and they have for some) but they arent. If each branch of government actually did what they were supposed to (and yes, all 3 branches have horrible, inexcusable problems) then we wouldnt be having this debate right now.

Quote:
While I agree with this, you have a problem. The leaders of the "marriage equality" movement explicitly reject this idea. [This idea being the government considering all marriage as a civil partnership]


As for this, no, they dont reject this idea. They want it fair. If the government gets out of the marriage business then it will be fair, and they can call their unions whatever they want. In fact, by removing government from the equation the only argument left is about semantics.


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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:49 pm 
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[quote="msomeoneelsez"

Quote:
While I agree with this, you have a problem. The leaders of the "marriage equality" movement explicitly reject this idea. [This idea being the government considering all marriage as a civil partnership]


As for this, no, they dont reject this idea. They want it fair. If the government gets out of the marriage business then it will be fair, and they can call their unions whatever they want. In fact, by removing government from the equation the only argument left is about semantics.[/quote]

The Judge of the California Supreme court made a suggestion that government remove itself from marriage all together. The leaders of the gay "marriage equality" rejected this idea completely.

They don't want it to be "fair", they want to have their relationships called a marriage by the government.


Infact, there was a chance to have DOMA brought up to the supreme court, but again the leaders of the "marriage equality" movement argued to have the case rejected, because they were afraid they would lose.


edit: Anybody who feels that redefining marriage is something which only non-gays are against, I suggest reading this blog.
http://www.gaysdefendmarriage.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:23 pm 
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Daganev wrote:
Quote:
Solution: Governments need to stop legislating morality, especially marriage.

My solution is as follows:
-Civil Partnerships for all cases where "marriage" would be used (Definition: Two or more consenting adults of any gender).


While I agree with this, you have a problem. The leaders of the "marriage equality" movement explicitly reject this idea.

re Hospital rights: Legally, what you wrote is not true. If it is true anywhere, then those places need to re-write the hospital laws. It has nothing to do with same sex marriage. For example, if a man lives with a girl and they are not married, but they have been living together for 20 years, they should also be given hospital visitation rights. If two college roommates live together and one gets sick, the roommate should be allowed to comfort the sick roommate. related, lovers, or not. Anyone who is "like family" should be allowed in the hospital. This is a red-herring issue.


That's not the issue. The issue is the government legislating morality. If any couple wants to go through religous routes and get a "marriage" - same-sex or otherwise - it's not the government's issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:19 pm 
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The government is involved in "morality" all the time though.

For example, when Social Services takes away a child from "bad" parents. Or when a Judge decides which parent deserves custody rights. Or when the government decides what doctors are or are not allowed to do to patients. Or when the government decides what authority figures are or are not allowed to do those under them.

Sexual harassment, racism, bribery, corruption these are all instances of "the government legislating morality." Wasn't that the argument in the 50s and 60s? That the Government can't legislate how people feel about each other? Well apparently they can.


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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:11 pm 
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I laugh at Americans that think they are free and literally are confused when they realize they are not.

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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:14 pm 
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Hell Scream wrote:
I laugh at Americans that think they are free and literally are confused when they realize they are not.

They're not free anymore, from the Patriot Act to Obama's scaremongering.

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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:08 pm 
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Plotter wrote:
Hell Scream wrote:
I laugh at Americans that think they are free and literally are confused when they realize they are not.

They're not free anymore, from the Patriot Act to Obama's scaremongering.


Amen to both of you.

By the way, I am an American, if you couldnt tell from the way I wrote earlier :D

As for government involving itself in morality, I have strict guidelines as to where it is acceptable.

1: The actions of one person drastically harms another person, i.e. child abuse, assisted suicide.
2: The actions of one person causes financial harm to another person or entity, i.e. stealing, embezzling.
3: Any other thing that can actually harm someone or something else.

Otherwise, in most cases, there is NO REASON to have government involved. Especially on the subject of marriage.


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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:20 am 
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I am amazed that there are so many posts so well sustained, with quotes on the constitution etc, congratulations to all of you. I was afraid i would say somehing stupid, but here i go

I am not american and i dont know very much how it works in the USA, but the essense should be more or less the same, so i will begin from here:

1.-
Plotter wrote:
Hell Scream wrote:
I laugh at Americans that think they are free and literally are confused when they realize they are not.

They're not free anymore, from the Patriot Act to Obama's scaremongering.


OH DUDE!!! DO you know how it is to leave in fear? Fear to be murdered or your kids stolen?, your property taken? By a thief or a geverment, the diference is that the first uses a weapon and the second uses a pen. These things wont hapen in the USA, (at least not in this era), please apreciate it, and enjoy it wiselly, cause there are millions that dont have such luxury.
But yes, freedom is regulated, not supressed or discretionaly administered, only regulated.

Freedom is something dificult to define, it might begin with what will i wear today(in the event you have several things to CHOOSE from), or where do i go tonight, or who do a choose to marry or live with and how do i leve with that personetc. Note that there are still places in the world where some of these questions cant exist, cause there is no freedom.

But being freedom something that we can all see in a diferent way, the law comes to regulate and uniformize everybodys freedom, so we all have the same amount of it LOL. The legal figure of marriage comes into play in order to give couples, rights and dutyes in front of the law, and this legal status is what is important.

Else, why marry?. There is no need for that, people can live togheter with no limitations, only the need to have a legal bond and the rights, dutyes and proviledges, it conveys makes legal marriage important.

Asides of the american isues of lobyists, laws, bills, etc, that should be worked out, gay marrige gives couples the tool and the confidence to build a life together, and sometimes, to divide it lawfully, (regulatedly).

SO, gay marriage should be allowed eveywhere but not to everyone.

What about children? Something is the relation among adults, and other how such relation affects young children. But this is an isue for another debate

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:49 am 
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SalvadorG wrote:
I am amazed that there are so many posts so well sustained, with quotes on the constitution etc, congratulations to all of you


I know... it is amazing that internet dorks like me can actually be semi intelligent every once in a while :D

The problem with defining freedom is that it is so relative. For example, in America (at least my state) the legal driving age is 16 years old. It is generally seen as an increase in freedoms for those who get their drivers license, but technically they were free before having the license in the first place.

The point that Hell Scream and Plotter had was that the US is no longer as free as it once was, and that is definitely a true statement.

As for the purpose of marriage, the law is not why people marry, but instead it is the commitment to their partner. In fact, marriage is only what people call it, so anyone can get married, they just have to call themselves a married couple, and make marriage vows and whatnot. Legally they may not be seen as married, but my argument is that there should be no legal definition of marriage. To government, marriage should just be something to note for census records and such.

I just wish that government would let people take care of their own relationships and whatnot. Oh well, the days of little brother are gone, Americans want Big Brother to move in and take over their lives.


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 Post subject: Re: Same-Sex marriage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:35 am 
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Basically only 3 states allow marrige the rest agree to the law. The law was formed 1922 so its quite outdated. I would like Barrack Obama to maybe you know change it. I'm not gay but I think mny others would aprreaticate it.

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